日志
印度人 中国人讨厌印度 活该 印度人民主为荣，中国人说是灾难 ...
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印度大佬扎心访谈：难怪中国人讨厌印度，我们活该！印度以“民主为荣”，中国人却觉得这是彻底的灾难！细数中印关系变迁史。
黑白猫PragCat 2026年8月30日
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJZ9sc2uX40
这期节目来自印度知名政治访谈系列 《与马尼和苏尼特同行》 。主持人马尼·尚卡尔·艾亚尔 ，印度政坛和外交界最“传奇”的人物之一。1941年出生于英属印度的拉合尔，印度分治后随家人迁入印度。他就读于印度最顶尖的杜恩学校，在那里结识了 未来的印度总理拉吉夫·甘地。1963年加入印度外事服务处（IFS）。1978年，他被任命为印度首任驻卡拉奇总领事，在印巴关系史上留下了自己的印记。1989年他加入国大党，三次当选人民院议员，四次入选联邦院，在曼莫汉·辛格总理的内阁中先后担任石油天然气部、青年事务与体育部、东北地区发展部等多个部的部长。
与马尼共同主持的是他的妻子苏尼特·维尔·辛格 ，她本人也是专栏作家和作者。而今天坐在他们对面的嘉宾，同样不一般——帕拉维·艾亚尔 ，注意她的姓氏，她正是这对主持人的儿媳。她是印度记者、作家。她曾在印度星空电台《印度教徒报》《商业标准报》等担任过记者。之后她在中国前后居住了近十年，一开始在中国传媒大学教书，后来成为《印度教徒报》常驻北京的记者，和中国分社社长。她是中国第一位会说中文的印度驻京记者。在华工作期间，也曾走遍中国的大江南北，实地考察过很多地方，与当地人面对面交流接触。
简而言之，她就是一个印度的中国通。一个在中国生活了近十年的印度人，用她自己的眼睛对比了两个国家二十年的变迁，她在视频里细数了从90年代到如今中印关系的变化，并客观分析了造成中印如今分道扬镳的原因。
我觉得印度媒体里，可以说是最客观的一集了
An Indian in China | WHAT THE CHINESE THINK OF US | with Pallavi Aiyar
Mani Shankar Aiyar 2026年8月22日
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIZgvvY3V5o
一位在华印度人 | 中国人如何看待我们 | 帕拉维·艾亚尔访谈
马尼·尚卡尔·艾亚尔 2026年8月22日
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIZgvvY3V5o
帕拉维·艾亚尔嫁给了一位欧盟外交官，她在本世纪初曾在中国生活了七年，如今又开始了她在中国的第二段长期生活。她能说一口流利的普通话，能与街头行人轻松交流，几乎走遍了这个幅员辽阔的国家的每一个角落，因此她能够很好地对比二十年前的中国和今天的中国。
在《马尼·基·巴特/苏尼特·凯·萨斯》节目中，她揭示了中国公众对印度的看法发生了惊人的变化，这可以追溯到十九世纪，当时头戴红色头巾的锡克教警察是欧洲帝国主义在殖民地中国主要城市维护内部安全的前线；如今在印度商界家喻户晓的马尔瓦里和帕西商人，当时却是鸦片的主要贸易商；而印度人则被视为白人的走狗。
尽管过去两个世纪以来，中印两国都发生了翻天覆地的变化，但在过去二十年里，中国经济几乎跃升至世界第二，而印度在几乎所有经济和人类发展指标上都远远落后，这使得印度被贴上了“阿三”的标签——一个贬义词，用来形容无能的落后者。
尽管印度传统上被视为佛陀的故乡，但就连其民主和宪法权利在中国也得不到尊重。印度的政治体制被认为正使国家深陷于其自身造成的泥潭之中。另一方面，中国体制运行得非常出色。只要中国在物质生活的各个方面都能保持卓越表现，那么即使失去自由——在我们印度人看来，自由是至关重要的——中国人也愿意承受，只要经济增长和繁荣能够继续全速前进。
当印度人还在为1962年的事件耿耿于怀时，普通中国人几乎已经忘记了那些事件，反而将加勒万河谷的冲突以及中国对阿鲁纳恰尔邦的主权声索视为中国采取行动的正当理由。印度自诩为地区强国，并渴望成为全球强国，但这些诉求并未被认真对待，反而被视为虚张声势、不切实际。
虽然个别印度人可能会受到热情接待，但中国民众普遍认为，印度无法与中国相提并论，而且永远也无法与之匹敌。这种观点在一定程度上是由中国官方宣传的，但已日益根深蒂固于中国人的心中。
我们尤其依赖美国以及欧洲在太平洋地区的军事盟友来遏制中国，这加剧了这种负面形象。只有与中国开展友好且持续的外交对话，这种形象才能改变。
您好，欢迎收听本期《Manikibat Sunnit Kasat》。我们邀请到了
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一位不同寻常的人物，一位在北京生活了近十年的印度人。
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她在中国北京四处游历，
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住在胡同里，胡同是中国人传统的
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居住地。她能说一口流利的普通话，并且与
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普通民众交流，谈论日常琐事，因此对中国有了独特的视角。
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以及中国人民和中国人的思维方式，而那些高级官员，比如
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使馆或贸易代表团的成员，永远不会吸取教训。所以我们请到了帕尔维·阿亚尔
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她和我们在一起，我想请她谈谈中国人对印度的看法
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以及这种看法是否一成不变，还是
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会随着时间推移而改变？因为在中国待了七年之后，已经过去了将近17年。
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[清嗓子] 是的。现在你在中国待了一年多了。那么中国人当时是怎么看待我们的？
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现在又是怎么看待我们的呢？嗯，这是一个很好的问题，我
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认为我观察到的情况存在显著差异。嗯，我的第一次经历是在千禧年初期，也就是20世纪80年代，从2002年到2009年。
你知道，那时候人们还在热议“中印合作”的概念，认为中国和印度会以某种方式
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走到一起，中国成为世界工厂，印度成为
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世界办公室，拥有强大的IT实力，这将共同引领亚洲世纪的崛起。嗯，
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当时作为一名印度人在中国的经历很有意思，因为中国是世界上为数不多的几个
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实际上没有大量印度侨民的国家之一。所以他们没有先入为主的偏见或观念。
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嗯，1962 年那场在印度人想象中影响巨大的战争，
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几乎不存在，嗯，因为它并没有被重新唤起。
他们的记忆，呃，就像在
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印度学童的记忆中被唤醒了。嗯，所以我认为他们对印度的总体印象比较模糊，
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但总体上是积极的。嗯，他们觉得佛教起源于，呃，来自
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印度，佛教对中国文明产生了巨大的影响。所以在
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这种意义上，印度的软实力相当重要。嗯，他们也看了很多20世纪50年代、60年代到
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70年代的宝莱坞电影，因为那时西方电影
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在中国大陆是被禁的。但印度电影因为带有某种社会主义主题，比如坏地主，好农民，以及富家女和穷小子之间的爱情故事，
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最终克服或未能克服社会差异，这种主题被中国共产党认为
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可以接受。所以，在某个时期，一些特定人群，
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40岁以上的人，一看到我就会说“伙计们”，
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我以前一直不明白“伙计们”是什么意思，直到我发现那是拉吉·卡普尔的中文名字。嗯，原因在于
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我发现的方法是，他们会开始唱歌
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当一个人开始唱歌时，如果是在像你之前提到的那种胡同里，胡同是
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公共空间，所以人们会互相窥探对方的隐私，他们都围坐在外面，所以如果一个人开始
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唱阿巴拉古，通常会有两三个人加入，然后就会形成一个合唱团，唱着这些拉杰卡普尔
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他们过去常说的歌曲，比如穆利·多伊卡·扎明·乌·索·德比卡·扎明·努里
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阿鲁，这三首是主要的，然后从20世纪70年代开始，还有一首《大篷车》，非常受欢迎
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嗯，所以他们对印度有一种……你知道的，某种程度上，一种温暖而美好的感觉，尽管通常的刻板印象……你
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知道印度人能歌善舞，印度女人很漂亮等等。佛教。所以
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有很多积极的联想，而且在某种程度上，我们之间也有一种大学氛围。我们都是
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拥有悠久历史的亚洲发展中国家，都在努力适应现代社会，摆脱
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这种西方的束缚。所以，确实存在这种感觉。 17年后，当
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我第二次回到印度时（2025年8月），我想说
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人们对印度的看法发生了巨大的变化，从曾经的大学潜在同侪变成了落后者
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要么被教导，要么被驯服。人们普遍认为
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印度与西方的比较已经不再成立，因为没有什么可以比较的，它们不在同一水平线上，所以
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将两者进行比较是印度的一厢情愿，或许也是一些西方国家想利用
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印度来遏制中国的手段。你知道，在20世纪90年代初，我们的GDP
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人均大致相当。而如今，中国的人均GDP是印度的五倍。嗯，它就像一个遥遥领先的科技公司。
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在人工智能、绿色科技以及真正
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高附加值科技领域。它不再是
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世界工厂，只生产纽扣、眼镜以及这类轻工业产品。
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那些日子已经过去了，他们非常重视自己作为规则制定者和规范者的地位，他们认为印度的
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地缘政治野心是错位的。我一次又一次地听到人们说，印度应该先整顿好自己的内部事务。
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先发展经济，真正提升人民的生活水平，然后再来谈论这些地缘政治问题。
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还有一点，我们现在当然也拥有大量的网民，这是20年前没有的。嗯，所以我们
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聊天中，有很多类似印度网络水军的群体，他们不断地
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把印度贬低成一个垃圾遍地的反乌托邦。他们是受党的指使吗？
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我认为他们不是受党的指使，但党也没有阻止他们。那么，这是否体现在
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你与中国人的日常互动中？因为你还记得我们
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20多年前在北京拜访你的时候吗？我们去了长城，
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我们去了故宫和所有历史遗迹，我一直穿着纱丽，我对
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中国人的热情笑容感到非常惊讶。他们中的很多人会走过来
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用手语问我是否可以摸摸我的纱丽。然后他们都
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想和我合影。他们给我的感觉非常非常热情，
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这让我很惊喜。那么，你现在在日常与中国人互动时，比如在市场里，或者在
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地铁里，或者在拥挤的地方，你觉得他们的态度有什么变化吗？但是你
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看起来明显是印度人吗？你会穿纱丽吗？是的。所以这个问题包含一些因素。
我绝对认为
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确实发生了变化，但这种变化的原因有很多。我认为主要原因之一是中国
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如今已是一个更加国际化、更加富裕的国家，人们对异域风情不再那么兴奋。比如20、
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25年前，如果他们看到外国人，往往会因为没见过外国人的面孔而从自行车上摔下来。呃，他们会
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为了拍照而攻击白人等等。现在，这种行为会被视为俗气。有点像，你知道，他们在那里，
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他们不在那里，他们不像环游世界的人。所以，这不再是一种异域风情的因素。而是
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变得更加国际化。人们更加中产阶级化。所以，人们对外国人感到特别兴奋的想法
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总体而言，我认为已经减少了。事实上，有些外国人并不喜欢这样。我认识很多白人，他们喜欢说，哦，我们以前被视为
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非常特别，而现在我们只是被视为普通人。但这也有一部分原因是，中国不再把他们视为
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特别异域风情、更优秀或与众不同的东西。所以，这方面确实存在。然而，话虽如此，纱丽仍然会吸引
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人们的目光。它是一件美丽的布料。它非常优雅，人们常常会称赞你是否穿着
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纱丽。近年来，中国出现了一股穿着传统中国服饰的复兴浪潮
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因为你知道，清朝之后，他们完全接受了西式服装。嗯，但是，
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中国出现了一种文明话语，人们对古代中国文化感到自豪，就像我们今天在印度也看到的那样。
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结果就是，如果你今天去中国的任何古迹，你会发现人们
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穿着所谓的汉服，也就是你在电视剧里看到的汉唐服饰，
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然后他们会穿着汉服待在那里，这几乎就像角色扮演一样，他们把它当作戏服来穿，然后拍照。但是，
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传统服饰正在回归，甚至中国人也开始穿传统服饰。如果他们看到纱丽，我想他们仍然会
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很可能会欣赏它。然而，当他们把你当成印度人时，我就很少听到“我们”这种说法了。
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“我们拥有相同的古老文化，你知道，就像他们过去经常把我们归为一类，你知道，发展中国家，呃，人口众多的
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“我们面临着同样的问题。20年前我经常听到这种说法。现在，大多是，哦，
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“你来自印度。” 少说，这真令人难过。但是你刚才说，
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“他们变得更加国际化，更加自信，更加开放，更加了解世界。” 9:51
你觉得生活水平和生活方式有明显的改变吗？
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我们当时是作为游客去的，我跟你说过那是20年前的事了，我一个穷人都没看到，没有……
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没有明显的贫困，没有贫民窟。而且就在不久前，我们去了重庆。
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重庆叫什么来着？好吧，再说一遍，变化很大，我们两个地方都去了。
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嗯，钱在开会的时候，我就到处逛逛。我去博物馆，我去购物。
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到处都是车，很多车，道路很宽。我一辆小型车都没看到。
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都是大型或中型车。所以我觉得这是一个巨大的飞跃，因为
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在50年代，他们都骑自行车，而现在他们连一辆像Maruti 800那样大小的车都看不到了。
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在两个大城市里都能看到汽车。是的。我的意思是，他们是世界上电动汽车的领先国家，而且
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他们有很多你可能从未听说过的汽车品牌，但他们生产的汽车看起来像
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蝙蝠车。我说的是那种非常先进的汽车，你跟它们说话，车门就打开，你进去。呃，一切都是
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自动化的，并且配备了人工智能。他们目前也处于无人驾驶汽车的前沿。所以
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他们正在广泛地进行无人驾驶汽车的试验。嗯，中国新车市场60%是电动汽车。
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这些电动汽车的质量可以与特斯拉媲美，但价格却便宜得多。所以你知道，
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这其实挺神奇的。我记得2005年的时候做过一篇关于Cherry的报道，Cherry是一家中国汽车制造商。
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我当时想探讨的问题是，中国是否能够制造出好车。你知道，我的意思是，这个问题
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现在这个问题已经有了答案。目前在中国的德国汽车制造商都非常害怕。
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他们的业务基本上正在被摧毁，他们不知道该如何应对，因为
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中国长期以来都是他们的主要市场，而不是欧洲。而如今，他们几乎完全被中国汽车制造商取代了。
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但回到你关于显性贫困的问题。是的。
所以，早在2000年，甚至
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在2000年代，作为一个印度人，我总是寻找看得见的贫困，因为我们想看到，我们想看到看得见的
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当我们看向窗外时，我不断地在北京问自己：这在哪里？嗯，在那里，我最终
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加入了一群记者，进行了一次几乎像是“贫困色情”的报道之旅，我们去了
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中国最贫困的省份，宁吉省。它与蒙古接壤，是GDP最低的省份，
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等等。我们去参观了一个村庄，这个村庄基本上已经荒漠化了好几年，
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结果几乎所有的年轻人都离开了，它应该是中国最贫困的村庄之一，只剩下一些老人
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留在那里。所以我想，终于能看到真正的贫穷了，你知道，因为这么多年来，我从未见过任何印度意义上的贫穷。
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我们到达了这个村庄。我们花了很长时间才到达那里，大多数西方
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记者很高兴终于看到了这个贫穷的地方，并提出了很多问题。但我当时看着这个地方
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首先，在这个中国最贫穷的地方外面，停着一辆摩托车。我们进去后发现他们有一台DVD播放机。
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他们还有一台风扇，你知道，还有各种白色家电，比如一台Chavala牌冰箱。在印度，
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拥有这些白色家电就算中产阶级了，你知道，这好像是我们衡量一个阶层的标准之一。这是2006年的情况。
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嗯，你知道，我觉得在印度，我们经常听到这样的说法：哦，不要相信你看到的，只有北京和
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上海和广州。过去一年，我一直在走访三四线城市，因为我计划
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写一本关于这些城市的书。而且，首先，它们中的大多数都通过高铁连接起来，这简直令人难以置信。
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因为高铁使得交通连接对经济运行方式产生了巨大的影响。96%的中国人
13:47
如今都拥有医疗保险，包括农村地区。嗯，他们有
13:52
这是一种复杂的、包含各种不同形式医疗保险的体系，但我交谈过的每个人都
13:58
有医保，你知道，嗯，而且公共空间已经焕然一新，以前困扰北京的污染……
14:04
天空晴朗，有些地方以前像国防区的犍陀罗一样，现在人们
14:10
在那里游泳，进行水上运动，嗯，所以公共空间……
14:16
面目全非，嗯，这种情况我到处都看到了，包括一些小得多的城市。
14:21
你会拥有非常非常好的基础设施，从而大大提高生活质量。
14:28
所以他们瞧不起我们，这是理所当然的。是的，我认为我们辜负了我们的人民
14:34
公民。我们辜负了我们的公民。我们没能提供城市基础设施。我们未能提供卫生条件。我们
14:41
未能提供人们能够保持健康的条件。呃，你知道，从空气到水，再到
14:47
医疗系统，我们甚至连让人们
14:52
感受到他们作为国家公民彼此平等，都失败了，反而造就了一代蟑螂。
15:01
这不言自明，对吧？金钱确实如此，但同时，嗯……
15:07
我们过去常常怨恨，至少我们这一代人过去常常怨恨
15:12
帝国军队的优越地位，因为他们比我们先进得多，因此会怀念
15:20
黄金时代。所以，根据你刚才的描述，这些中国人似乎
15:26
认为他们因为达到了西方的生活水平
15:31
就应该瞧不起穷人，但他们尤其瞧不起印度人。我不认为他们瞧不起
15:37
非洲人。是的，你说得完全正确。我确实不认为他们瞧不起非洲人。他们瞧不起印度人，是因为他们觉得
15:43
印度有一种傲慢自大的态度，并且自视甚高，认为自己与中国平起平坐。所以他们很热衷于这个想法
15:49
例如，你知道，他们拥有令人难以置信的绿色、非常非常便宜且质量卓越的可再生能源技术
15:56
就太阳能发电厂和风能而言，他们一直在向非洲和
16:01
巴基斯坦。我经常遇到中国人，他们说，为什么印度不接受？为什么印度不利用中国的经济？
16:08
邻国中国的经济来真正改善印度的经济，然后开始谈论所有这些地缘战略问题。
16:14
有一种感觉，他们本质上是在和西方结盟，以遏制中国，所以很多
16:21
对印度的态度都与这种感觉有关，即我们不值得信任
16:26
因为归根结底，这不是关于贫困的问题，而是关于试图通过西方的力量不公平地抬高
16:34
我们的战略实力。
对我来说，更可信的说法是：
16:39
我们被视为西方的走狗，这与
16:45
19世纪中国人对我们的印象相吻合。在
16:52
20世纪50年代，他们曾以非常兄弟般的眼光看待我们。那是印地语
16:58
“再见中国”的时代，因为当时看起来我们似乎试图通过自身的独立来巩固他们的解放。
17:06
但尤其是在我们开始经济改革和转向西方之后，
17:11
他们越来越把我们视为西方的代理人。不是因为我们贫穷，而是
17:18
因为我们是走狗，他们瞧不起我们。改变这种状况的唯一方法是明确地向他们表明：
17:25
[清嗓子] 你们比西方对我们更重要。
17:30
所以我完全同意你的观点，中国确实存在一种深厚的历史暗流。如果你读过一些19世纪末期的作家，他们当时正在努力应对现代性，试图理解如何改革清朝
17:42
帝国等等，他们总是把印度视为最糟糕的例子，认为印度的思想被殖民了。
17:49
这很有意思，因为大约三周前，我去北京的印度大使馆看了一部电影，
17:55
是《萨达尔·奥达姆·辛格》，讲述的是乌达姆·辛格的故事。但当你看到贾拉瓦拉布的场景时，比如
18:01
所有开枪的人都是印度人。我想，呃，有一个像戴勒将军和他的爪牙在下达命令的场景，但就像影院里的每个人一样，
18:07
所有人都很震惊，印度人竟然向印度人开枪。如果你仔细看看这些19世纪末期的作家，你会发现…… 19世纪
18:14
20世纪初的文本中总有一种感觉，这个国家只会听从白人的指示。嗯
18:20
这也可以追溯到殖民时期的警察部队，因为另一方面，我认为没有任何
18:25
在21世纪和20世纪，有任何民族像中国人那样在内战中互相残杀。
18:31
没错。但这不包括白人。对。所以我们是在讨论西方倾向沦为傀儡。
18:37
山开非常亲西方。是的。嗯，山开在中国的名声并不好。但你必须
18:43
记住，在殖民时期，殖民统治和鸦片贸易最明显的执行者就像
18:50
警察。所以你知道，我们有14%的英国警察部队参与决策。
18:55
上海是萨达尔。嗯，我们在印度已经遗忘了殖民历史，因为没人告诉我们这些，即使在……
19:02
在中国，我不认为这被反复提及，但那里确实存在一种观点，认为很多印度商人靠鸦片期货发家致富。
19:09
比如比拉斯（Bilas）的鸦片期货交易，还有帕西（Parsi）……
19:15
20世纪30年代和40年代在广州从事鸦片交易的商人。
19:21
当时广州的帕西比英国商人还多，所以你知道，阿米特·戈（Amit Go）在这方面做了很多研究。
19:26
某种程度上，他挖掘出了这段历史，因为我们当然把自己视为殖民地臣民，所以你知道，但这些人靠这个赚了钱。
19:34
中国人不太喜欢谈论这件事。然而，互联网上出现了一个新的词，
19:40
那就是“Assan”，他们一直称呼印度人为“Assan”。好的，“Assan”这个词
19:45
实际上是在20世纪20年代和30年代的香港和上海用来指代锡克族警察的。好的，
19:53
它的含义并不十分清楚，为什么会这样？是的，它的含义并不十分清楚，但是
19:59
有各种各样的说法，我认为最可信的说法是，它的意思就像“先生”。所以，“先生”的意思
20:05
“第三”。所以“先生”是“第三”。为什么呢？因为在当时的等级制度中，白人是第一，中国人是第二，印度人是
20:12
第三，这是在这些条约港口的殖民等级制度中。所以现在，“Assan”变成了一个贬义词，就像一个
20:19
侮辱性的词语。呃，每当他们想谈论这个话题时，呃，这又不是官方的
20:24
中国官方话语，而是中国网民的话语。每当他们想谈论印度舔舐西方的
20:31
下层地区时，他们就会称我们为阿桑，就像买办、走狗、总是
20:38
愿意做白人所为的人，就像四方安全对话所象征的那样。四方安全对话。我们不是，我们是四方安全对话中唯一的非太平洋国家
20:44
国家。尽管我们说我们不参与四方安全对话的军事
20:50
层面，但事实是，四方安全对话旨在遏制中国。
20:56
没错。他们看到了这一点，他们觉得，无论我们说什么是我们的战略自主，都是
21:01
虚伪的。这很大程度上是一种遏制中国的战略。我认为在
21:07
核能协议之后也发生了很大的变化，你知道，那是在乔治·布什执政时期达成的，当时我们获得了豁免，然后他们认为印度
21:14
正坚定地融入西方的轨道，而且我认为官方层面已经发生了一些变化，他们对印度的看法发生了改变。
21:21
他们不认为印度是一个诚信的伙伴，因为最终他们会站在美国一边。
21:27
我认为，当我们开始经济改革时，那是一个关键的转折点，当时我还在议会。
21:35
当时印度，尤其是经济学家，普遍认为我们无法独立启动
21:42
我们必须依靠自身力量，而“国外”指的是西方。然后，1962年……
21:51
我们心想，但肯定不能来自东方，而东方实际上指的是中国。这就是这种脱节。
22:00
我们真正的需求很容易从我们的大陆邻国得到满足，
22:05
而不是跨越两大洋去寻找这些。为什么
22:11
印度人没有及时认识到中国的潜力？而当
22:16
他们做到了，我们非但没有钦佩他们，反而似乎在嫉妒他们，我们似乎
22:22
嫉妒。我们似乎认为他们遥遥领先于我们是不合理的。
22:28
不。这种说法的一部分，是我们不愿在心理上接受我们
22:35
落后于他们，是因为……我们太强调……民主的生活方式
22:42
以及民主作为……现代印度的主要成就，而我们觉得……
22:52
中国缺乏这一点，事实上，中国在另一边落入了一个非常专制的政权。我们仍然
22:59
记得泰纳曼广场，它在过去并不那么重要，但它却深深地影响着我们
23:05
在我们看来，我们已经实现了民主和言论自由，但我们并不
23:11
直到最近，除了克什米尔以外，我们还没有广泛封锁互联网，所以我们
23:18
认为我们优越，这在中国是怎么看的？是的，我认为他们把印度
23:23
民主视为一场灾难，一种警示故事，如果我们实行民主
23:29
我们就会像印度一样。所以他们已经说了很久了，因为他们一直在问，为什么没有垃圾？为什么
23:35
垃圾不被收集？为什么人行道上有人等等。我们该怎么说？答案是：我们是民主国家。呃，不，我的意思是，我认为对
23:41
他们来说，我们的民主实际上一直是身份政治，本质上就像
23:47
不同类型的群体利用民主作为从国家获取利益的手段，而不是建立一个
23:54
真正意义上的公民社会，在这个社会里，每个人都是公民，并为国家的发展而努力。在中国，存在一种……
24:01
反直觉的情况，人们会认为民主……
24:06
在民主制度下，政府应该更积极地回应人民的需求，对吧？……但在中国，他们不是……
24:12
民主国家。然而，我认为如今政府对人民的需求比对政府的需求更积极。
24:19
不，我也认为这是人民的问题。政府对任何形式的人民运动都非常紧张，因此他们……
24:26
往往对人民的需求非常积极。……他们是一个……
24:32
注重政绩而非过程的政府。好吧，我们非常注重过程。选举过程赋予了……
24:38
政府合法性，证明他们是由选举产生的。而不是他们的政绩。他们是否真正兑现承诺并不能赋予……
24:46
他们的合法性。他们可以胡说八道。我们会净化空气。我们会做这个。我们会做那个。没人会用那种标准来约束他们。
24:51
因为这是选举过程。中国没有这样的程序，中国政府没有这样的程序。
24:57
选举。他们拥有的是政绩的合法性，他们说这就是我们要做的，我们要征服中国，我们必须征服中国。
25:03
中国。例如，如果他们大规模泄题，
25:10
因为高考，就像那里的高中考试一样，中国和印度一样，都是考试之国。
25:15
这是你提升生活的方式。如果这些考试普遍泄题，如果存在任何不公平的迹象，
25:21
他们可能会面临严重的后果，这就是为什么他们真的确保事情
25:28
进行。你是说政府吗？嗯。我是说政府。是的。所以，你现在有一个政府，它实际上对民众的反应更加迅速，比如
25:35
它拥有治理能力，并且能够解决各种问题，因为如果他们不这样做，他们就没有
25:41
任何其他方式来应对任何抗议，对吧？所以，
25:46
处理抗议的方式就是展现政府的政绩。所以这是一个非常反直觉的情况。所以你的意思是，尽管是
25:53
中国共产党仍然保持不变。是的。是的，是反抗和反抗的反应
26:00
不再是国家武器库的一部分。当然不是。我的意思是，那是89年。我们现在说的是26年。而且我们已经
26:06
看到了中国取得了多大的发展。我的意思是，对大多数中国人来说，这就像梦想成真一样。
26:11
他们的标准他们的生活非常幸福。他们非常快乐。你知道，一切都变得超级好。嗯，Tan Anman，你
26:20
你知道，这就像被视为通往我们今天所处位置道路上的一个小插曲。你知道毛泽东说过，呃，一场
26:28
革命中，不打破几个鸡蛋就无法进行革命。所以他们有一个官方的，呃，呃
26:35
对毛泽东的官方评价是，他70%是对的，30%是错的。所以你知道，有些事情是
26:41
错的，但从长远来看，这是必要的，我想大多数人都会这么认为。所以过去的苦难
26:47
呃，已经被遗忘了。文化革命的代价，呃 ...所以基本上就像
27:02
一片沉默。这就像美国人对待印第安人及其历史的态度吗？
27:09
印第安人？不，我认为在美国，人们谈论得更多，因为有压力团体，他们会谈论
27:14
而且偶尔也会有其他事情发生。美国的言论自由度要高得多。这一点毋庸置疑。在中国，
27:20
有一些特定的领域，比如你不能去那里。所以现在的年轻人几乎不了解文化大革命或大跃进
27:26
因为学校课程里没有这些内容，而且通常家庭内部也不会谈论这些，因为
27:31
家庭有一种感觉，觉得这有什么意义？谈论过去的事情有什么用？把过去的事情翻出来，看看现在
27:37
正在发生的事情。但对党来说，继续保持影响力至关重要。嗯，对，因为就像
27:43
当你停止发表言论的时候，那种“让我们忘记过去”的社会契约就可能
27:49
岌岌可危。难道不是吗？中国的监狱里人满为患，而且
27:57
我从尼鲁帕玛·拉奥大使那里听说，互联网上每天都有成千上万的人
28:02
抱怨中国的这样那样的事情。是的。所以我认为，也许在
28:09
尼鲁帕玛在任的时候，也就是我当时在任的时候，言论自由度要高得多。嗯，在习近平的领导下，以及
28:15
目前对互联网的监控，你会发现很少有人抱怨中国，因为即使有，也会被抹杀。
28:22
第一，第二，我的意思是，过去20年里，中国的情况已经有了巨大的改善。所以，就这一点而言：
28:27
呃，就像这套系统已经证明有效，而且现在比以前好得多。
28:33
监狱里可能人满为患。我们不知道，因为我们没有关于监狱里有多少囚犯等等的公开数据。
28:39
但是我要说的是，这是一个非常安全的国家，因为
28:46
到处都有监控，而且我接触过的大多数中国人似乎都欣然接受了这种权衡。
28:53
监控和安全之间的权衡。呃，几乎没有诈骗，几乎没有盗窃。呃呃
28:58
你知道，互联网刚兴起的时候，政治局内部发生了一场变革，因为腐败问题。
29:04
没错。他们对此持非常积极的态度，认为他真的在打击腐败。所以我觉得习近平……
29:09
不太好。习近平真的真的真的认为，腐败是党垮台的根源，这是唯一一件不能容忍的事情。
29:16
腐败是绝对不能容忍的。所以，过去15、16年来一直在进行的反腐运动……
29:22
呃，这就像它有双重目的。显然，清洗是因为方便……
29:27
从政治角度来看，也是为了清除你的……敌人等等。但我认为，目前确实存在一股反对腐败的真诚力量。
29:34
反对高层腐败，因为人们普遍认为，在中国社会，腐败再次变得不公平。
29:40
没错，腐败是不能容忍的。如果党被视为腐败，那么党的长远未来就无法得到保障。
29:46
你知道，所以现在的反腐败力量与以往相比有了巨大的变化。
29:52
官员的行为方式也发生了巨大的改变。比如说，20年前，每次你去任何地方，都会受到政府官员的款待。
29:58
部长，不是部长，而是一个30年城市里的小官员，他们会举办奢华的宴会，而你
30:04
可以看出，宴会是一种腐败的手段。你知道，他们会邀请很多人，所以有很多腐败行为。
30:10
用现金而不是直接用钱来支付，这种情况已经结束了。我的意思是，一切都必须节俭。现在，我
30:15
我的意思是，每次我在 Swiggy 或 Blanket 上点餐时，我都会非常节制地吃，呃
30:22
相当于一顿饭，我会收到一条小信息，提醒我一定要
30:27
适量点餐，不要浪费食物。所以，即使在个人层面，你也会收到这样的信息。在
30:34
官方层面，人们害怕反腐败关于清洗。现在
30:40
这样做也有弊端，这意味着可能会出现一定程度的瘫痪。过去，政府与商业的联系非常紧密。
30:47
过去，政府与商业的联系非常紧密。存在着一些具有企业家精神的官僚，你知道，
30:53
很难区分谁是商业的起点，谁是商业的终点。现在，两者之间的界限已经更加清晰，
30:58
也更加严格地划分了界限。嗯，这确实意味着经济增速放缓，一些助长腐败的因素也
31:04
在某种程度上消失了，但我认为，从政治角度来看，她将腐败认定为
31:11
确保高层政党长期执政的主要手段，这一点非常重要，这使得腐败被视为
31:16
可弹劾的罪行。
1988年，我陪同拉吉夫·甘地访问中国，这是近三十年来的首次访问。
31:23
当时邓小平对我们应该
31:29
合作以确保和平与安宁，并有可能
31:35
实现一个中国引领、印度享有尊严地位的亚洲世纪持开放态度。这种态度
31:43
改变了吗？如果改变了，原因是什么？我们了解中国的成就，但是
31:49
印度的失败是否导致了
31:55
这种氛围的变化？如今，
32:02
印中携手共创亚洲世纪是否只是一个遥不可及的梦想？我认为
32:08
这很难回答，但回到你最初的问题，是什么导致了态度的转变
32:14
你说得对，1988年和1990年，印度和中国相对平等，你知道，这一代人
32:20
总是说不，但抱歉，我不得不打断你刚才的话，我们
几乎一样。
我之前在总理办公室花了几个小时和蒙特·辛格·阿卢争论，他们远远领先于我们
32:34
当时他们的外汇储备是我们的三倍。所以说我们处于
32:40
同一水平是不正确的。好吧，这是事实。但也许我们之间的差距比今天小。但说我们在80年代末处于同一水平是不正确的
32:46
这或许适用于
32:51
50年代。我认为这取决于你指的是哪些指标。如果你看的是人均收入，那么我们在1988年和1990年
32:57
基本持平。如果你看的是公路和铁路的数量，那么我们
33:03
和中国差不多。我们不同的地方在于，中国经历了共产主义革命，所以他们的识字率更高，而且
33:10
孕产妇死亡率更低，人类发展指标也比印度好得多。嗯，所以，1988年和1990年的人类
33:16
发展指标领先于印度，但在人均GDP和基础设施方面，我们
33:23
不相上下。我的意思是，数据就是这么显示的。但回到你的第一个问题，达米亚·平当时的做法是：
33:30
你知道，中国提出了东西向边界互换的方案，如果我们接受了，这个问题就不会存在。
33:35
但当时我们感觉自己掌握了主动权，所以我们拒绝了。嗯，而今天
33:41
中国不会提出类似的方案，因为它根本不需要对
33:47
我们做出任何妥协。他们不需要对美国做出任何妥协。
当特朗普试图用关税强硬手段对付他们时，
33:52
他们成功地压制了美国。对吧？对吧？所以他们肯定也能压制印度。我们错失了一个绝佳的机会。然而，我
33:58
认为，如果要追溯这一变化真正开始的时期，我认为是
34:04
乔治·布什的民用核能协议。我之前已经跟你谈过这个了。我们在20世纪90年代末和21世纪初确实看到了这一点，特别是
34:10
2003年瓦杰的访问，然后是2005年万贾巴的访问，以及
34:15
2006年曼莫汉·辛格访问中国。双方的合作日益密切。贸易领域也发生了很多事情。我们当时正处于
34:22
呈指数级增长。当时有很多印度公司开始在中国投资，我们
34:29
在2005年制定了一套规则，以此为基础
34:35
讨论边界问题，包括考虑到定居居民的感受，这里指的是
34:40
阿鲁纳恰尔邦。所以，你知道，2006年达成了核能民用能源协议。
2008年是
34:48
平信徒兄弟会的崩溃以及随之而来的西方金融体系的崩溃，这再次让中国
34:54
感到整个体系都是错误的，并更加坚定了他们
34:59
走自己的道路的信念。我认为这两件事的结合，尤其是因为当时的印度变得更加以西方为中心，导致中国认为
35:07
他们不再需要采取妥协的态度。正如你所知，从2008年开始，边境地区就出现了侵略行为。
35:13
现在，这种情况已经持续了一段时间。我认为，要实现你所说的这个世纪的目标非常困难。
35:19
因为边境问题再次成为焦点，而
35:24
在2000年代初期，它还被搁置一边。但是，嗯，这是一个引人入胜的话题。
35:30
我们可以继续讨论下去，但我想最后一个问题，嗯，中国现任政权对异议和抗议的态度是怎样的？
35:37
是否有所改变，还是仍然非常压制？嗯，我认为更加压制了。
35:50
所以，是的，我认为新平之后，他的主要想法是确保国家
35:58
由党领导。这就像他的首要目标。因此，意识形态教育也更加深入。现在
36:04
更多的人循规蹈矩。留给知识分子、艺术家、
36:09
创造性言论的空间少了很多。
一切都受到更严格的监控。现在有了防火墙。所以当然
36:16
互联网也受到监控。新冠疫情期间，到处都安装了监控摄像头。它们至今没有被拆除。所以监控力度大幅增加。
36:22
而且在Shiinping的领导下，我们需要比以前更多的意识形态纯洁性。所以我认为，在Bunjaba Hujinttow早期
36:30
我第一次任职期间，人们开始公开批评一些领域。
36:37
例如，有很多关于腐败的报道。有很多关于某些
36:42
腐败类型的报道。你不会触及最高领导人，但会触及地方领导人。以前有很多关于环境污染之类的报道，比如
36:49
现在这类报道少了很多，管控也更严格了。然而，他们基本上有办法
36:57
了解民众的担忧，并在私下解决。所以，
37:02
并不是因为没有言论自由，他们就不知道发生了什么。确实有信息传递，但这些信息
37:09
不会像公开讨论那样公开。
那么，印度和
37:16
中国在2026年需要做些什么才能携手前进？或者说，这扇门
37:23
已经关闭了？这很棘手。我们必须在边境问题上取得一些实质性进展，我认为这意味着要做出一些真正的让步。这不会
37:29
是一个无需任何让步的解决方案。而且我相信，只要我们没有某种形式的
37:37
边界解决方案（需要做出一些让步），情况就会非常困难，因为每次我们开启任何
37:43
经济或政治对话，如果最终发生边境冲突，那就意味着倒退三步，这正是我们过去25年来所看到的。我们
37:50
谨慎地推进和解，向前迈进一步，然后又发生像加尔文冲突之类的事件，之后就会出现
37:55
长达5年的僵局。所以我认为，从长远或中期来看，没有边界解决方案，就不会促成
38:02
任何可持续的合作。我们或许有一些战术领域的合作空间，但要建立真正的
38:10
战略伙伴关系，边境必须有所行动，与此同时，恶意
38:16
正在互联网上蔓延，并渗透到中国人的思想和心灵中。
38:21
是的。不是印度人。我是指你在边境问题以及印中关系中看到的仇外民族主义。
38:27
在WhatsApp用户群体中，或者他们没有WhatsApp的人，呃，呃，微信用户群体，是吗？
38:34
这使得事情变得困难，因为这个播客绝对不会在中国播出。
38:39
不会，但这也因为他们无法访问。他们只能通过VPN访问中国。敌对的
38:46
气氛真的很糟糕，因为Money的众多医生之一……
38:54
在加勒万河谷事件之后，我们在一个社交聚会上碰到了他，他说你知道吗？
39:00
他在印度一家顶尖医院工作，他说：
39:06
当我看到中国病人时，我不想给他们治疗。不幸的是，这就是我们正在营造的氛围。
可悲的是，他看到的很多中国人其实是印度人，这就像……
39:19
更糟糕的是，情况真的很糟。两年前，我和一个中国朋友去了瑞士的希尔洪峰顶，那是一座……
39:24
瑞士的山。在那里，我看到一个印度家庭正在吃他们从……一路带来的阿卢卡帕拉塔饼。
39:29
从德里带来的。这本身就很有意思，但我的中国朋友说，哦，看起来真好吃。所以我说……哦
39:34
我会问问他们，我相信他们很乐意让你尝一口。所以我走过去跟他们说，你知道，这是我朋友，她对印度薄饼很感兴趣。
39:41
她尝了一口，他们说，嗯，好吧，你从哪里来，孩子？然后她说中国，那个人说，非常糟糕的国家。她当时就
39:48
震惊了。我的意思是，这是他对她说的第一句话，对吧？她就[笑]好吧。所以我的意思是，是的，我
39:54
我的意思是，我们对中国有很多偏见，而且非常我们对中国抱有很多幻想。你知道，我们有点像
40:00
像鸵鸟一样，不相信，假装中国正在发生的事情不是真的。
40:05
这样做有什么用呢？你知道，这只是为了掩盖我们自身的功能失调。嗯嗯，而不是排序
40:13
看到你知道，从各种各样的功能失调和巨大的……中国
40:18
经历了非常动荡的……你知道，20世纪和21世纪，他们为此付出了巨大的代价，但是……但是……但是今天我
40:26
认为几乎所有中国人的生活都更好了，你知道，嗯嗯，而且
40:32
不幸的是，当你看看25年前的印度和今天，尤其是在城市地区，不仅生活水平下降了
40:39
而且我们的民主质量、言论自由的质量、
40:45
制度自由的质量也下降了，就像你刚才说的，你知道，我们25年前可能会说，好吧，中国是一个威权国家，但是
40:52
我们拥有所有这些。今天，我觉得我们就像两头不讨好。我们既有威权主义，又有腹泻致死的案例。
40:59
两者兼而有之，[笑声] 你知道的。所以，问题在于，权衡取舍在哪里？就像我觉得在中国
41:04
人们常常觉得存在权衡取舍，好吗？比如，更多的监控换来安全，更少的犯罪，你知道，呃，更少的言论自由
41:11
但更多的经济机会，你知道，不管你怎么说，总得有所取舍。我只是觉得
41:16
我们在权衡取舍的两端都选错了。你知道，我们既有威权主义最糟糕的一面，又有选举民主的种种弊端。
41:23
所以，中国或许存在一个弊端，但
41:29
也存在一个弊端。我希望如此。我只能说，我希望如此。但鉴于目前的情况，呃呃……
41:35
很难保持乐观。而过去那种……呃……印地语……
41:41
印地语……现在变成了印地语……再见。再见。这太令人难过了。
41:48
和邻居交朋友总是更好的。我的意思是，你知道，任何紧急情况……
41:54
你都会去找邻居。美国远在千里之外，但这就是我们现在的处境。
42:00
所以我们现在正处于宣传期。所以，让我们祈祷一切顺利吧。我的意思是，这只是迈出了一小步，但……
42:05
至少比一年前好多了。人类心中永远怀揣着希望
42:11
只是这并不现实，嗯，我当然希望
42:16
印度人的思维方式能够有所改变，我相信这也会影响中国人的思维方式。
42:22
过去80年里，两国的思维方式都发生了如此多的变化，以至于我无法相信
42:31
一切都停滞不前。我仍然认为，如果我们要务实地看待
42:37
关于边界，它并非天然边界。它是
42:43
英国出于帝国主义目的而人为划定的边界，而这些目的与2026年毫无关系。[清嗓子]
42:49
我们可以向前迈进，如果我们真的向前迈进，那将是一个更加美好的亚洲
42:55
一个更加美好的印度，或许还有一个比今天更加美好的中国。
43:00
非常感谢。 Namaskar J. 谢谢。
An Indian in China | WHAT THE CHINESE THINK OF US | with Pallavi Aiyar
Mani Shankar Aiyar 2026年8月22日
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIZgvvY3V5o
Pallavi Aiyar, who is married to a European Union diplomat, spent seven years in China in the early years of this century and is now in her second long spell in the country. She speaks fluent Mandarin, freely interacts with people on the streets, has travelled to virtually every nook and corner of that vast country, and is therefore well positioned to contrast the China of two decades ago with the China of today.
On Mani ki baat/Suneet ke saath, she reveals the startling change in Chinese public opinion towards India, harking back to the nineteenth century, when Sikh policemen in red turbans were the frontline of European imperialist internal security in the major cities of colonial China; Marwari and Parsi businessmen, whose names are now familiar in big business in India, were then among the principal traders of opium; and Indians were seen as lackeys of the White Man.
While much has changed in both countries over the last two centuries, in the last two decades China's leap forward to virtually the number two position in the world economy, while India has lagged far behind on almost every index of economic and human development, has cast India in the image of “Ah San” (Number Three), a pejorative word for an incompetent laggard.
Whereas traditionally India has been seen as the Land of the Buddha, not even its democracy and constitutional rights are esteemed in China. The political system in India is perceived as leaving the country wallowing in a quagmire of its own making. The Chinese system, on the other hand, has performed remarkably well, and so long as outstanding performance on every front of material life is sustained, the loss of freedom—which we in India regard as fundamental—is a loss that the Chinese are prepared to bear, so long as growth and prosperity continue to move full steam ahead.
While Indians nurse their grievances over 1962, the ordinary Chinese barely recalls those events and instead regards the incursions that have occurred in the Galwan Valley, as well as Chinese claims over Arunachal Pradesh, as legitimate grounds for Chinese action. Indian claims to being a regional power and its aspirations to being regarded as a global power are not taken seriously and are dismissed as pretentious and unsustainable.
While individual Indians may be received with warmth and smiles, the broad general opinion of India in China, propagated to some extent by the Chinese authorities but increasingly embedded in the Chinese psyche, is that India is not in China's league and never will be.
This negative image is reinforced by our turning to America in particular, and Europe's military allies in the Pacific, for the containment of China. The image will change only if we engage in friendly and sustained diplomatic discourse with China.
Namaskar and welcome to this episode of Manikibat Sunnit Kasat. We have with us
0:07
an unusual person, someone who has lived as an Indian in Beijing for the best
0:15
part of a decade. She was there in Beijing in China traveling all over the
0:21
place living in hutong which are the traditional
0:27
habitations of the Chinese speaking fluent Mandarin and uh meeting with
0:34
ordinary people and talking to them about ordinary things and therefore getting an unusual perspective on China
0:43
and the Chinese people and Chinese thinking that high officials in
0:48
embassies or trade delegations will never ever learn. So we have Palvi Ayar
0:54
with us and I'm going to ask her to give us an impression of how the Chinese look
1:03
upon India and whether there is a permanence in this view of India or does
1:08
it change from time to time because after seven years in China there's been a gap of nearly 178 17 years.
1:16
[clears throat] Yeah. And now you've been there for a little over a year. So how did the Chinese look
1:22
on us and how are they looking on us now? Yeah. Um that's a great question and I
1:28
think that there is a significant difference in what I've observed. Um my first innings was um in the early part
1:36
of the millennium in the 80s between 2002 and 2009.
1:41
And um you know it was a time when there was still a lot of talk of the idea of Chindia of China and India somehow
1:48
coming together with China being the back uh the being the sort of workshop of the world and India being the back
1:55
office of the world as an IT prowess and that this would then together lead to the rise of the Asian century. Um it was
2:03
interesting being an Indian in China at the time because it was one of the few countries in the world where you
2:08
actually did not have a significant Indian diaspora. So they did not already have preconceived prejudices or notions.
2:16
Um the the sort of 1962 war that loomed very large in the Indian imagination was
2:22
almost non-existent uh as something that was it was not refreshed in their memories uh like it is refreshed in the
2:28
memories of Indian school children. Um so I think the sort of general impressions they had of India were vague
2:35
but largely positive. Um there was a sense that Buddhism came from um uh from
2:41
from India and Buddhism had such a civilizational impact on China. So in
2:46
that sense the soft power of India was quite significant. Um they also had watched a lot of 1950s, 1960s up to
2:53
1970s era Bollywood movies because this was a time when western movies were
2:58
banned in the mainland. But Indian films because they had a sort of socialist theme of you know bad landlord, good
3:08
peasant uh and this kind of love story between a rich uh girl and a poor boy
3:13
eventually overcoming or not societal uh differences was a theme that was deemed
3:19
uh acceptable uh by the Chinese communists. And so there would be this was a time when people of a certain
3:25
demographic people in their 40s and above the moment they would see me they would start saying things like lads and
3:31
I used to be like what is lads until I discovered that that is the Chinese name for Raj Kapoor. Um and the reason the
3:37
way I discovered it was that they would start singing au
3:42
and when one person would start singing if it was in a kind of hutong like you talked about earlier it hutong are
3:48
communal spaces so people are kind of everybody's nose is in everybody else's business and they're all sort of sitting around outside so if one guy started
3:55
singing abalagu often two or three would sort of join in and then you'd have a whole chorus singing these rajkapur
4:00
songs they used to talk about muli doika zamin u so dbika zamin nuri
4:06
Aaru these were the three big ones and then from the 1970s there was Caravan which was a huge hit that Pu Aha
4:15
um and so they had this um you know kind of warm fuzzy feeling about India to an extent the usual stereotypes that you
4:21
know Indians can sing and dance Indian women are so beautiful etc. Buddhism. So
4:26
quite a lot of positive connotations and there was also a sense in which we were somehow collegiate. We were both big
4:34
Asian developing countries with ancient histories that were sort of trying to grapple with modernity and throw off
4:41
this kind of western yoke. So there was some sense of that. 17 years later when
4:46
I've gone back in my second stint um 2025 August 2025 I would say that
4:53
there's been a dramatic change in perceptions of India from this kind of collegiate potential peer to a lagard to
5:00
be either taught or put in their place there is very much this sense that the
5:06
India comparison no longer holds because there's nothing to compare they are not uh at the same level so benchmarking the
5:13
two against each is wishful thinking on the part of India and perhaps some western countries who would like to use
5:19
India as a way of containing China. Um you know uh in the early 1990s our GDP
5:26
per capita was roughly similar. Today China's is five times more than India's. Um it is like a by far technological
5:33
leader when it comes to artificial intelligence when it comes to green technologies when it comes to really
5:38
high value added kinds of uh technologies. It's no longer this
5:44
workshop of the world just making buttons and um you know the spectacles and these kind of light manufacturing
5:50
commodities those days have gone and they very much see themselves as rule setters normters and they see ch India's
5:58
geopolitical ambitions as being misplaced I'm told time and again that India should settle its house in order
6:05
develop your economy first actually lift up your people and then start talking about these geopolitical issues um
6:12
there's this uh you We now also of course have a lot of netizens which you did not have 20 years ago. Um so on we
6:19
chat and there's a huge number of sort of troll armies similar to what you have in India that are constantly putting
6:25
India down as a trashfilled uh dystopia. Are they pushed by the party?
6:31
I think that they're not pushed by the party but they are not discouraged by the party. So does this come through in
6:37
your daytoday interaction with the Chinese people? Because remember when we
6:42
visited you uh in Beijing more than 20 years ago uh we went to the great wall,
6:49
we went to the palace and all the historic sites and I was always in a sari and I was very taken aback at the
6:58
welcoming smiles of the Chinese. Uh they they would many of them would come up
7:04
and ask in sign language ask if they could touch my sari. Then they all
7:09
wanted photographs with me. It and they were very very warm vibe that I got from
7:16
them which was a big surprise. So in your daily interactions now with the Chinese in the marketplace or in a in
7:24
the metro or a crowded place do you find a change in their attitude? But do you
7:30
look visibly Indian? Do you wear a sari? Yeah. So there are few sort of elements to that question. I definitely think
7:36
there's a change, but there's different reasons for that change. I think one of the main reasons is that China is just a
7:42
much more cosmopolitan, richer country today that shows less excitement about the foreign and the exotic. So like 20,
7:48
25 years ago, often if they saw a foreigner, they would fall off their bicycle because they hadn't seen a foreign face. Uh they would they would
7:54
assault white people for photographs and all of that. Now they're at a level where that would be seen as tacky. It's a bit like, you know, they're there,
8:00
they're not there, they are not like they have traveled the world. So it's no longer this kind of exotic factor. It's
8:06
become more cosmopolitan. People are more middle class. So the idea of getting very excited by foreigners in
8:12
general, I think has reduced. And in fact, some foreigners don't like that. I know a lot of white people who like, oh, we used to be like seen as something
8:18
very special and today we just seen as anybody. But that's also because China no longer sees them as something, you
8:24
know, hugely exotic or better or different. So there's that aspect. However, that said, a sari would attract
8:30
attention. It is a beautiful piece of fabric. It is very elegant and people would often they might sort of compliment you on if you're wearing a
8:37
sari or not. There has been a huge revival in China in recent years of wearing traditional Chinese clothes
8:43
because and you know after theqing dynasty they had completely adopted western attire. Uh but there's been this
8:50
kind of civilizational discourse and pride in you know ancient Chinese culture in China just as we are seeing
8:56
some of that in India as well. And the result is that if you go to any monuments today in China, uh people deck
9:01
up in what they call hanfu, which is Han dynasty, Tang dynasty clothes that you see from um television series really and
9:09
then they will spend their time in but it's almost like cosplaying like they will wear it as a costume and take photographs. But there is a return of
9:16
traditional clothing even for the Chinese. And if they were to see a sari, I think that they would, you know, still
9:21
probably be appreciative of it. However, when they sort of see you as Indian, I no longer get so much about the uh we
9:27
are the same ancient cultures, you know, like they used to put us together a lot, you know, developing countries, uh large
9:34
populations, we have the same problems. They I used to get a lot of that 20 years ago. Today, it's mostly like, oh,
9:39
you're from India. Less said that is so sad. But u you said that
9:46
they've become more cosmopolitan, more cosmopolitan, more confident and more open, more aware of the world. Do
9:51
you see a visible change in the standard of living in the lifestyle and is it you
9:58
see we went as tourists and that I told you was 20 years ago I didn't see a single poor person there was no um
10:06
visible poverty no juggi precluster also more recently just before co we went to uh Chongdong
10:15
what is it called Chongqing okay say it again changing we went to both.
10:22
And um while money was at the conference, I would roam around. I went to the museum. I went shopping. And
10:28
everywhere uh there was a lot of traffic. There were a lot of cars, broad roads. I didn't see a single smallsized
10:37
car. They were all big or mediumsiz. So that I thought was a great jump because
10:43
in the 50s they were all on bicycles and now they're not even a Maruti 800 size
10:50
car visible in two big cities. Yeah. So I mean they're the world's leading nation in electric vehicles and
10:57
they have a huge number of different car brands that you might never have heard of but they produce cars that look like
11:02
the Batmobile. I'm talking about so advanced that you speak to them, the doors open, you get in. uh everything is
11:08
automated and sort of equipped with AI. They're also at the forefront of um uh uh driverless cars at the moment. So
11:14
they're being experimented with uh quite widely. Um 60% of new cars on China's uh
11:21
market are today EVs and these are EVs that compare with Tesla on quality but are much cheaper. Uh so you know it's
11:27
actually kind of amazing. I do remember doing a story in 2005 on Cherry which was like a Chinese car manufacturer and
11:34
the question I was trying to address is will China ever be able to make a a good car you know I mean and that that has
11:40
that question has been answered in more than all the German car manufacturers in China at the moment are terrified um
11:47
essentially their businesses are being decimated and they have no idea how to kind of uh um deal with this because
11:54
China for a long time was their main market it was not in Europe but it was in China and today they've almost completely been replaced by uh Chinese
12:00
car manufacturers. But just going back to your question about visible poverty. Yes. Yes. So when back in 2000 so even
12:06
in the 2000s as an Indian I was always looking for visible poverty right because we want to see we see visible
12:13
poverty when we look outside our window and I kept sort of in Beijing saying where is this? Um I there I eventually
12:20
joined a bunch of journalists on an almost like a what was like a poverty porn reporting trip where we went to the
12:26
poorest province in China which is uh Ningia province. It's on the border with Mongolia and it has the lowest GDP and
12:33
so on. And we went to visit a village which had essentially been uh uh uh under desertification for uh several um
12:41
years with the result that almost all young people had left and it was supposed to be one of the poorest villages in China and just a few old
12:47
people left over there. So I thought finally I'll see this poverty you know because all this while I hadn't been seeing poverty in any Indian sense of
12:54
the word at all and we arrived at this village. It took us quite a long time to get there and most of the western
12:59
journalists were very happy to finally see this poor place and were asking questions. But I was looking at this
13:04
place firstly outside the poorest place in China there was a motorbike parked. We went inside and they had a DVD player
13:11
they had a fan you know there were all these white goods there was a fridge chavala fridge and here in India that
13:17
would be middle class you know with the possession of these white goods is like one of the ways in which we measure and this is back in 2006.
13:24
Um so you know I think in India we often have this narrative of oh don't believe what you see it's only Beijing and
13:30
Shanghai and Guangjo. I have for the last year been traveling to third and fourth tier cities because I plan to
13:35
write a book about these and uh most of them are connected by highspeed rail to begin with which is just mind-blowing
13:41
because it makes the connectivity makes such a huge difference to how the economy functions. 96% of the Chinese
13:47
population today has health insurance uh including in rural areas. um they have
13:52
it's a it's a it's a kind of complex of different forms of health insurance but every single person I've spoken to is
13:58
covered you know um and public spaces have improved beyond recognition the pollution that used to plague Beijing um
14:04
skies are clear there are places there which used to look like the Gandhala in defense colony and now you have people
14:10
swimming in them and doing water sports um so just the public spaces um are
14:16
unrecognizable um and this I've seen across the board including in much smaller uh cities
14:21
um you will have really really good infrastructure which leads to a very improved quality of life.
14:28
So they look down on us deservedly. Yes, we are I think have failed our pe
14:34
citizens. We have failed our citizens. We have failed to provide urban infrastructure. We have failed to provide sanitary conditions. We have
14:41
failed to provide the conditions in which people can be healthy. uh uh you know from the air to the water to the
14:47
medical system to we we we failed in I feel even creating a sense of people
14:52
feeling like they are equal to each other as citizens of the country instead created a generation of cockroaches
15:01
that speaks for itself huh money it does indeed but at the same time um
15:07
does we used to resent at least my generation used to resent the
15:12
superiority of the imperial forces because they were so far advanced over us and would therefore hark back to a
15:20
golden past. So it does seem that these Chinese according to the account you've
15:26
just given believe that because they have reached western standards of living
15:31
they should look down on poor people but they look down particularly on Indians. I don't think they look down on
15:37
Africans. Yes, you're absolutely right. I actually do not think that they look down on Africans. it's Indians because they feel
15:43
that there's a kind of hubris in India and that India positions itself as an equal. So they are quite into the idea
15:49
of for example you know they have incredible green uh very very cheap and excellent quality renewable technology
15:56
in terms of solar farms in terms of wind energy and they've been exporting huge amounts of this to Africa and to
16:01
Pakistan I keep meeting Chinese who say why don't India take it why doesn't India leverage China's uh economy right
16:08
next door to actually improve India's economy and then start talking about all these geostrategic things there is a
16:14
sense that they are essentially playing a game of being with the west uh to contain China and so a lot of that uh
16:21
attitude towards India has to do with this sense that we are not to be trusted
16:26
uh because ultimately it's not about the poverty it's about the trying to through the power of the west unfairly inflate
16:34
our strategic power that is what is more credible to me that
16:39
we are seen as western lackey and that links up with the impression
16:45
that the Chinese of the 19th century had about us and there was a period in the
16:52
1950s when they looked in very brotherly way towards us. It was the era of Hindi
16:58
chini bye-bye because it looked as if we were attempting to reinforce their liberation through our own independence.
17:06
But increasingly especially after we embarked on economic reforms and this
17:11
pivot to the west they see us as agents of the west. not because we are poor but
17:18
because we are lackeyis that they're looking down upon us and the only way of changing that is to clearly indicate
17:25
[clears throat] to them that you are a more important partner for us than the west is.
17:30
So I absolutely agree with you that there is a deep historical undercurrent in China which if you read the sort of
17:37
late 19th century writers who were sort of grappling with modernity and trying to understand how to reform theqing
17:42
empire etc. they would always look at India as the as like the worst scenario where this is a kind of colonized mind
17:49
and it's interesting because I recently went to watch a movie at the Indian embassy in Beijing about 3 weeks ago it
17:55
was Sardar Odam Singh and it was showing the story of Udhham Singh but when you look at Jalavalab for example all the
18:01
people who were shooting were Indians and I think uh so there was one like this general dyer and his lackey giving the commandments but like everybody in
18:07
the hall was really shocked that Indians were shooting upon Indians and if you sort of look at these late 19th century
18:14
early 20th century text there is always this sense that this country will just do what white people tell them to do. Um
18:20
and this goes back to the colonial police force as well because on the other hand I don't think any
18:25
peoples have killed each other in intern warfare in the 21st in the 20th century
18:31
as much as the Chinese. Correct. But this is without the white person. Right. So we're talking about the western orientation being a lackey.
18:37
Shankai was very oriented towards the west. Yes. Well Changai is not looked upon particularly well in China. But you have
18:43
to remember that during colonial times the most visible enforcer of uh colonial rule and the opium trade was like the
18:50
sik policeman. So you know we had 14% of the police force of the British say in
18:55
Shanghai was the Sardar. um the colonial we have forgotten in India because nobody tells us this but and even in
19:02
China I don't think that it's like reiterated but there is a sentiment over there that a lot of the Indian businessmen made their fortunes on
19:09
trading in opium uh uh the uh bilas for example on opium futures the parsi
19:15
merchants that were uh uh trading in opium uh in Canton in the 1930s and 40s
19:21
there were more parsies in Canton than there were British merchants so you know Amit go has done some good work on this
19:26
sort of unearthing that uh because we of course see ourselves as colonial subjects and so you know but these people made money off of this uh the
19:34
Chinese don't particularly hop on about that. However, there is a new porative that has emerged on the internet and
19:40
that is Assan and they keep calling Indians Assan. Okay, Assan was a term
19:45
that was really used in the 1920s and 30s in Hong Kong and Shanghai to talk about the Sikh uh uh policemen. Okay,
19:53
and there it's not very clear why ah what does it mean? Yes, it's not very very clear uh what it means but there
19:59
are various theories and I think the most credible one a just means like mister. So son third okay son means
20:05
third. So Mr. third why because in the hierarchy it was like white man number one Chinese number two the Indian number
20:12
three in that colonial hierarchy in these treaty ports. So now Assan has come out like a bad word. It's like a
20:19
slur. And uh whenever they want to talk about uh this is again not official
20:24
Chinese discourse but netizen Chinese discourse. Whenever they want to talk about India supposedly licking the
20:31
nether regions of the west they will term us as assan which is like the comprador the lackey the person always
20:38
willing to do the white symbolized by the quad. The quad. We are not we are the only non-pacific
20:44
country in the quad. And although we say that we are not part of the military
20:50
dimensions of Quad, the fact is that Quad is designed to contain the Chinese.
20:56
That's right. And they they see that and they feel they see that whatever we say that it's our strategic autonomy is
21:01
disingenuous. That this is very much a China containment strategy. I think a big change also happened after the
21:07
nuclear energy deal that was a you know under George Bush uh when we got the waiver and then that they saw India as
21:14
going quite firmly into the west's orbit and uh there has been a change I think at the official level uh on how they see
21:21
India they do not see India as being a good faith actor uh uh because ultimately they will side with the US
21:27
that was I think a key turning point when we started our economic reforms and I was in parliament at that time there
21:35
was a deep belief in India especially among economists that we can't kickstart
21:42
it ourselves we have to have a lot of assistance from abroad and abroad meant the west and then 1962 came into our
21:51
minds and we said but certainly not from the east when the east really means China and it is this disjuncture yeah
22:00
between our real requirements which can easily be met from our continental
22:05
neighbors instead of going across two oceans to discover all that. How is it
22:11
that the Indians did not recognize in time the Chinese potential? And when
22:16
they did, instead of admiring them, we seem to be envying them, we seem to be
22:22
jealous. We seem to think it is illegitimate for them to be so far ahead of us.
22:28
No. And part of this narrative that u we do not act mentally accept that we have
22:35
lagged behind is because uh there was so much stress on uh democratic way of life
22:42
and democracy as the uh main achievement of modern India which uh we felt uh
22:52
China lacked in fact fell on the other side a very repressive regime. We still
22:59
remember Tynaman Square which was not very much u in the past that looms large
23:05
in our mind that we have achieved democracy freedom of speech u we do not
23:11
well till recently we didn't block internet widely except in Kashmir so we
23:18
thought we are superior how is that viewed in China yeah I think they see dem Indian
23:23
democracy as a disaster and as a kind of cautionary tale that if we had democracy
23:29
we'd be like India. So this is something they've been saying for quite a long time because they keep saying things like why is there no garbage? Why are
23:35
the garbage not being collected? Why are there people on the footpath etc. What do we say? We are democratic is the answer. Uh no and I mean I think for
23:41
them our democracy has really been about identity politics and essentially like
23:47
different kinds of groups uh using democracy as a way of gaining boons from the state rather than sort of building a
23:54
proper civil society where everybody is a citizen and you work towards how the country develops. In China there is a um
24:01
counter counterintuitive situation which is that one would imagine that a democ
24:06
in a democracy the government would be more responsive to the people's demands right uh but in China they are not a
24:12
democracy however I think the government is more responsive to the people's demands today to the government's demands
24:19
no I also think it's the people the government is very nervous about any uh kind of people's movement and hence they
24:26
tend to be actually very responsive to the people's demands uh they are a government of uh
24:32
performance rather than process. Okay, we are very much about process. The process of elections is what gives
24:38
legitimacy to our governments that they have been elected. Not their performance. Whether they actually fulfill their promises is not what gives
24:46
them legitimacy or not. They can say anything. We'll clean the air. We'll do this. We'll do that. Nobody holds them
24:51
to that standard because it's the process of getting elected. China does not have the proc the Chinese government is not does not have the process of
24:57
getting elected. they have the legitimacy of performance that they are saying that this is what's we we're going to take China and we have to take
25:03
China there. If for example they were having massive paper exams uh leaks uh
25:10
because again the gao which is like the high school examination over there China like India is the nation of the exam
25:15
that's how you better your life if those exams were having widespread leaks if there was any sense that there was
25:21
unfairness in that they could face a huge consequence which is why they really make sure that things are
25:28
conducted. You mean the government? Mhm. I mean the government. Yeah. So hence you have a government that is actually much more responsive to like
25:35
that governs that has government capacity and is solving various issues because if they do not they do not have
25:41
any other way of withstanding uh any protest right so like the the way of
25:46
handling it is performance. So it's a very counter counterintuitive situation. So you're saying that although it's the
25:53
Chinese Communist Party which remains the same. Yes. It's the tan men and tian men reaction is no
26:00
longer part of the state armory. Well, of course not. I mean, that was 89. We're talking about 26. And we've
26:06
seen how far China has come. I mean, like for most Chinese people, they can't like this is like a dream come true.
26:11
Their standards of living are huge. They're extremely happy. They're, you know, everything has like super improved. And um Tan Anman again, you
26:20
know, it was like it's seen as something that was a a blip on the road to where we are. You know how Mao said that uh a
26:28
revol in a revolution you can't make revolution without breaking a few eggs. So they they have an official um uh
26:35
judgment and the official judgment on Mao is that he was 70% correct and 30% wrong. So you know some things were
26:41
wrong but this was necessary in the kind of longer term and I think most people would see it like that. So the travails
26:47
of the past um uh have been forgotten. The uh con the price of the cultural
26:56
revolution on society uh is wiped out from the collective. It's not taught. So it's basically like
27:02
a big blanket silence. Is it like the American attitude towards the red Indian and their history with
27:09
the red Indian? No, I think it's more talked about in the US because the there are pressure groups and they talk about
27:14
it and there will be occasionally the US has much more freedom of speech. There's no two ways about it. In China, there
27:20
are these certain areas like you don't go there. So like the young people today would have almost no knowledge of the cultural revolution or the great leap
27:26
forward because it's not available in school curriculum and usually it's not talked about within families because
27:31
families have this sense of what's the fa what's the point of talking about it and dragging up all these things that happened in the past when look at what's
27:37
happening now. But for the party therefore it's very important to keep delivering. Uh right because like the
27:43
moment you sort of stop delivering then suddenly that sort of social contract of let's forget about the past could be in
27:49
danger. Isn't it true that the jails in China are filled with prisoners and also I
27:57
heard this from ambassador Nupamar Rao that on the internet there are thousands
28:02
literally every day complaining about something or the other in China. Yeah. So I think that maybe when
28:09
Nirupama was there which is when I was there was a time of a lot more freedom of speech. Um under Xiinping and the
28:15
kind of current surveillance of the internet you're going to find very little complaining about China because if there is it will get wiped out.
28:22
Number one. Number two I mean things in China have improved immeasurably in the last 20 years. So also just in terms of
28:27
uh like that system having shown that it works is much better today than it was.
28:33
The jails are probably filled with people. We don't know because we don't have uh open data available about how
28:39
many prisoners there are and so on and so forth. Um but I will say that uh it is an incredibly safe country because of
28:46
all the surveillance and most of the Chinese I've spoken to seem to have accepted quite happily this trade-off
28:53
between surveillance and safety. Uh almost no scams, almost no theft. Uh uh
28:58
you know and there were when the internet first started there's been a revolution in the polit bureau because of corruption.
29:04
Correct. and they see that in a very positive way in that he's really going after corruption. So I think Xiin I'm
29:09
not okay Xiinping really really really thought that the downfall of the party can be corruption that is the one thing
29:16
that will not be tolerated corruption. So that anti-corruption campaign that's been ongoing for the last 15 or 16 years
29:22
uh it's like it's a it's there dual purposes. There's obviously purges that happen because it's convenient
29:27
politically and to get rid of your uh enemies and so on. But I think that there has been a genuine drive against
29:34
corruption at higher levels because there is this sense that in Chinese society corruption again becomes unfair
29:40
right and it's not going to be tolerated and if the party is seen as corrupt the long-term future of the party is not
29:46
secured you know so the anti there is a huge difference I see now in official
29:52
behavior so in the past like say 20 years ago every time you went to any you were entertained by any government uh
29:58
minister not minister like small official in a 30-year city they would have these lavish banquetss and you
30:04
could see that the banquetss were a way of corruption you know they would a lot of people would be invited so there was a lot of corruption that went through
30:10
kapina rather than like just straight cash there's an end to that I mean everything has to be modest now and I
30:15
mean really the very modest eating every time I order on my swiggy or blanket uh
30:22
equivalent a meal I get a little message that says please be sure to order
30:27
modestly and not waste your food so this is this kind of uh messaging that you're getting even at the individual level. At
30:34
the official level, people are terrified of the anti-corruption purges. And now
30:40
there can be downsides to that which means that you can have a certain amount of paralysis. There was a a certain amount of like the government was very
30:47
much involved with business in the past. There was the entrepreneurial bureaucrats and you know what where one
30:53
began and where one ended was very difficult. There's been much more separation of that and there's much more
30:58
checks and controls. um that does mean that the economy slows down and that some of that lubricating corruption has
31:04
also kind of disappeared but I think politically it is very important she has identified corruption as the main way to
31:11
ensure the longevity of the parties at the top for it to be seen as
31:16
impeachable. In 1988, when I accompanied Rajiv Gandhi to China, the first visit
31:23
in nearly three decades, Deng Xiaoping was open to the idea that we should
31:29
collaborate in order to ensure peace and tranquility and potentially bring about
31:35
an Asian century in which China would be in the lead but India would have a respectable place. Has that attitude
31:43
changed? If so, why are they? We know all about Chinese achievements but are
31:49
there no is is there are there Indian failures that have been responsible for
31:55
uh the change in the atmosphere and is it a pipe dream to think today about
32:02
India and China holding hands together and creating an Asian century. I think
32:08
it would be difficult but to go back to your original question of what is responsible for the change in attitude
32:14
you are right in 1988 1990 India and China were on relatively equal you know that's what this generation
32:20
always says no but sorry I have to interrupt what you've just said that we
32:26
were almost the same I spent hours arguing with Monte Singh Alu earlier in PMO that they are so far ahead of us
32:34
then and their foreign exchange reserves were three times ours So it is not true to say that we were at
32:40
the same level. Okay, it is true. But perhaps the difference between us was less than it is today. But it is not
32:46
true to say that in the late 80s we were at the same position. That might have
32:51
been true of the 50s. I think it depends on what parameters you are talking about. So if you are looking at per capita income, we were
32:57
more or less the same in 1988 and 1990. If you're looking in terms of the amount of highways and railway tracks, we were
33:03
around the same as China. Where we were different was that China had had a communist revolution and so they had much better literacy and they had much
33:10
better maternal mortality and they had much better human development indicators than India did. Um so the human
33:16
development indicators in 1988 1990 were ahead of India's but in terms of per capita GDP and infrastructure they were
33:23
on par. I mean that is what the data shows. But to go back to answer your first question of uh Damia Ping did as
33:30
you know offer the eastern western sector swap on the boundary and if we had accepted it this problem would not
33:35
exist today but we had a sense of being in the driver's seat at that point of time and we rejected it. Uh and today
33:41
China is not going to offer anything like that because it is does not any in any way need to be consiliatory towards
33:47
us. They do not need to be consiliatory towards the US. When Trump tried to go to them with a big stick with tariffs
33:52
they were able to stare them down. Right? Right? So there's no way that they can't stare India down. So we missed a big opportunity. However, I
33:58
think if you're going to date where that change really took off, I think it was the civilian nuclear energy deal of
34:04
George Bush. I already talked to you about that. We did see in the late 1990s and in the early 2000s, particularly
34:10
with Vajay's visit in 2003, then Wanjaba's visit here in 2005, then
34:15
Manmohan Singh's visit to China in 2006. There was a growing rapromo. There was a lot going on in trade. we were sort of
34:22
exponentially increasing. There were a lot of Indian uh uh um companies that had begun investing in China and we had
34:29
kind of come up with uh uh a set of rules uh in 2005 on the basis of which
34:35
to discuss the border including keeping the sensibilities of the settled populations in mind which is a reference
34:40
to Arunachal Pradesh. So there were some kind of you know give 2006 was the nuclear civilian energy deal. 2008 was
34:48
the collapse of layman brothers and the subsequent collapse of the western financial system which again gave China
34:54
a sense that this entire system is wrong and greater sense and belief in their
34:59
own path and I think the combination of those two and particularly because India by then had become much more western centric um led to China believing that
35:07
they no longer had to be consiliatory and as you know there have been encroions on the border from 2008
35:13
onwards which have now made it very difficult I think to uh kind have achieved this uh century that you are
35:19
talking about because the border is very much back up front and center where it
35:24
was on the back burner in the early 2000s. But um I this is a fascinating subject
35:30
and we could go on and on but I think one last question and um what is the
35:37
current u regime in China's attitude towards dissent and protest? Is there a
35:45
change or is it still very repressive? Well, I would say it's more repressive.
35:50
So, yeah, like I think post Xinping like he is I think I think his main idea has been to make sure that the country is
35:58
led by the party. That's like the number one goal that he has. So there's much more ideological education. There's much
36:04
more toing the line. There's much less uh room for intellectual, artistic,
36:09
creative uh speech. um uh things are much more surveiled. You now have the great firewall. So of course the
36:16
internet is surveiled. During covid security cameras went up everywhere. They haven't come back down. So surveillance has increased a huge amount
36:22
and we you need more ideological purity under shiinping than you had before. So I think bunjaba hujinttow the early in
36:30
my first stint were much more an area where you had seen people starting to come out with uh uh more open criticisms
36:37
in certain areas. So for example there was a lot of reporting on corruption. There was a lot of report on certain
36:42
kinds of corruption. You don't touch the top leaders but local level leaders. There was a lot of reporting on environment uh pollution things like
36:49
that. That would now kind of be much less. It's much more clamped down on. However, they have ways of essentially
36:57
knowing what are people's concerns addressing them behind closed doors. So,
37:02
it's not as though because there's no freedom of speech, they don't know what's going on. There is information passed up but this is not information
37:09
that will be like kulam kola out in the open open discuss. So what would it take for India and
37:16
China in 2026 to move forward together or is that door
37:23
closed? It's tough. We'll have to make some real progress on the border and I think that means some real concession. It's not
37:29
going to be a concessionfree uh uh resolution. And I do believe that as long as we don't have uh some kind of
37:37
border resolution which will entail some concessions uh it's going to be very hard because every time we open up any
37:43
kind of economic or political dialogue if there ends up being a border skirmish it's three steps back which is what we've seen for the last 25 years we do
37:50
have cautious rapromos and one step forward and then something like galvan or whatever happens and then you have a
37:55
freeze for 5 years. So I don't think that in the long or medium term no border resolution uh is going to lead to
38:02
any sustainable uh getting together. We might have some tactical uh areas where we can cooperate but to develop a true
38:10
strategic partnership there has to be movement on the border and in the meanwhile viciousness
38:16
is growing on the internet and seeping into the minds and hearts of the Chinese.
38:21
Yes. and not the Indians. I mean the xenophobic nationalism that you see on the border issues and on India and China
38:27
amongst the general sort of WhatsApp population or they don't have WhatsApp uh uh uh wechathat population is is it
38:34
makes it hard because absolutely uh would this podcast be shown in China?
38:39
No, but that's also because they can't access it. They have a great Chinese fire only through a VPN. a hostile
38:46
atmosphere is really bad because one of Money's numerous our numerous doctors um
38:54
post Galwan uh we ran into him at a social gathering and he said you know u
39:00
and he works in this doctor in one of the leading hospitals of India he said
39:06
when I see a Chinese patient I don't feel like treating them this is the atmosphere we are creating unfortunately
39:13
sadly many of the Chinese he's seeing are really people Indians which is like
39:19
even worse it's really bad but I took a Chinese friend and I were up in uh the top of Shilhorn which is a mountain in
39:24
Switzerland 2 years ago and um there was an Indian family there eating aluka parathas that they brought all the way
39:29
from Delhi which was interesting enough on its own but my Chinese friends said oh that looks delicious so I said oh
39:34
I'll ask them I'm sure they'll be happy to give you a bite so I went up to them and said you know this is my friend and she was interested in the paratha can
39:41
she try it and they said huh okay where are you from beta And then she said China and this man said very bad country. That was and she was just
39:48
shocked. I mean it was the first thing he said to her, right? And she's like [laughter] okay. So I mean yes it's I
39:54
mean we have a huge amount of prejudice against China and a huge amount of illusions about China. You know we kind
40:00
of like are ostriches and this kind of disbelieving and sort of pretending that what's happening in China is not real.
40:05
What is it serving? You know it's just serving to kind of justify our own uh dysfunction. uh uh and instead of sort
40:13
of seeing that that you know it is possible to emerge out of all kinds of dysfunction and huge amounts China has
40:18
had a very tumultuous uh you know 20th and 21st century and they've paid a huge price for it but uh but but today I
40:26
think that for almost all Chinese people life is better you know uh um and
40:32
unfortunately when you look at India 25 years ago and today and especially in urban context not only have has the kind
40:39
of standard of living declined but also the quality of our democracy, the quality of our freedom of speech, the
40:45
quality of our institutional freedoms, which you were saying, you know, we might have said 25 years ago, okay, China is an authoritarian country, but
40:52
we have all of these things. Today, I feel like we have like the worst of both worlds. We have a kind of authoritarianism with diarrhea deaths
40:59
together, [laughter] you know. So, it's like where is the trade-off? Like I feel like in China
41:04
often people feel there are trade-offs, okay? for more surveillance but safety, less crime, you know, uh less freedom of
41:11
speech but more economic opportunity, like you know, whatever you might say, there might be trade-offs. I just feel
41:16
like we've got the wrong ends of the trade-offs on both ends. You know, we've got the the worst of the authoritarianism and uh uh and the sort
41:23
of downsides of uh uh an electoral democracy. So there may be a vixit China, but there
41:29
is a vit. I hope so. All I can say is that I hope so. But given the current uh uh
41:35
scenario, it is difficult to be optimistic. And the days of uh Hindi
41:41
chini by it's become Hindi chini bye-bye. Come bye-bye. It that is so sad. It's
41:48
always better to make friends with your neighbors. I mean you know any emergency
41:54
you run to the neighbor. America is sitting so many miles away but that's where we are.
42:00
So we are in the middle of a rapromo right now. So let's just hope for the best. I mean it's baby steps but at
42:05
least it's better than it was a year ago. Hope springs eternal in the human race
42:11
except that it's not realistic and uh I certainly hope there'll be a change in
42:16
the Indian mindset which I'm sure will impact on the Chinese mindset. There
42:22
have been so many changes in the mindsets of both countries in the last 80 years that I refuse to believe that
42:31
everything is at a standstill. I still think that if we were to be realistic
42:37
about the border and it's not a natural border. It's a border that was created
42:43
by the British for imperial reasons that are simply not relevant [clears throat] to 2026.
42:49
We can move forward and if we do move forward it will be to a much better Asia
42:55
and a much better India and possibly a much better China than we have today.
43:00
Thank you very much. Namaskar J. Thank you.
