东南亚政治思想家（一）：中国的治理模式，包括习近平反腐，没有多少国家能学得来，这太难了

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpsxUzfnDFg 

2026年4月24日
主持人埃里克·奥兰德是美国人，他在CNN、BBC、France 24都工作过，可以说是一个拥有非常完整西方媒体背景、很了解西方叙事，但同时也很了解中国的西方记者。

嘉宾钱德兰·奈尔，是东南亚政治思想家，罗马俱乐部执行委员。他本人就扎根于发展中国家，对东南亚的政商生态、资源博弈和社会发展有极其深入的观察。他最近出了本新书叫《理解中国》——书里有一个观点：西方对中国的焦虑，不是因为中国做了什么，而是因为中国“来了”。用他的话说，中国不需要成为美国，但西方必须接受一个非白人、非西方的文明型国家已经坐在了餐桌上。

《理解中国》（劳特利奇当代中国系列）第一版

作者：钱德兰·奈尔、约根·兰德斯、周金峰 2025年11月24日 劳特利奇出版社

https://www.routledge.com/Understanding-China-Governance-Socio-Economics-Global-Influence/Nair-Randers-Zhou-Dubee/p/book/9781041080565

所属系列：劳特利奇当代中国系列（共233册）

查看所有版本和格式

本书对中国从20世纪70年代末的受限经济体转型为2024年的全球领先大国这一历程，提供了一个姗姗来迟、平衡且客观的视角。

本书通过对邓小平改革开放政策、其治理原则以及中国崛起对世界的影响进行详细的背景分析，探讨了中国崛起背后的政治动机。

对于对中国过去 50 年的发展历程感兴趣的读者来说，本书是一部极具价值的资源，可供政策制定者、商业专业人士、学者以及当代中国研究、国际关系、全球政治经济学和治理专业的学生参考。

Understanding China (Routledge Contemporary China Series) 1st Edition

by Chandran Nair, Jorgen Randers, Jinfeng Zhou November 24, 2025 by Routledge
https://www.routledge.com/Understanding-China-Governance-Socio-Economics-Global-Influence/Nair-Randers-Zhou-Dubee/p/book/9781041080565

Part of: Routledge Contemporary China (233 books)
See all formats and editions
This book offers a long-overdue, balanced, and objective perspective on China’s transformation from a constrained economy in the late 1970s to a leading global power in 2024.

It examines the political motivations behind China’s rise through a detailed contextualisation of the reforms and opening-up policies of Deng Xiaoping, its governing principles, and the implications of its ascent for the world.

For readers interested in China’s evolution over the past 50 years, this book is a valuable resource for policymakers, business professionals, academics, and students of contemporary Chinese studies, international relations, global political economy, and governance.

Conversation Changers: Challenging Western Myths About China’s Rise with Chandran Nair

Salzburg Global  2026年4月16日
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovN9CMU7umI&t=2s

Is China an expansionist threat to the global order, or a misunderstood civilisational state focused on internal harmony and stability?

In this episode of Conversation Changers, host Eric Olander explores the meteoric rise of China—a country that has transformed from a state where food was rationed with coupons to the world’s largest economy by purchasing power parity in just four decades. Joining the conversation is Chandran Nair, a Salzburg Global Fellow, Founder and CEO of the Global Institute For Tomorrow (GIFT) and the principal author of the provocative new book, Understanding China: Governance, Socio-Economics, Global Influence.

Nair challenges the prevailing Western narrative that China is a "tyranny" run by autocrats. 

Drawing on his lived experience in Southeast Asia and China, he argues that the current friction between the East and West stems less from Chinese aggression and more from a deep-seated Western fear of losing four centuries of global privilege. From the "China Formula" of meritocracy and anti-corruption to the unique challenges of rural revitalisation, this episode offers a vital perspective from the Global South on how to navigate a multipolar 21st century.

In this episode, we delve into: 

The Civilisational State: Why viewing China through a Western political lens leads to profound misunderstandings of its goals and governance.

The Fear of Lost Privilege: An analysis of why the US and Europe perceive China’s growth as a threat to their historical dominance.

The China Formula: The three pillars of China’s success: meritocracy, a communitarian view of service, and a hardline stance on corruption.

Economic Re-imagination: Why China is holding onto low-end manufacturing while pivoting toward food security and rural revitalisation.

The Risk of Miscalculation: The danger of "hot wars" and why the world needs enlightened leadership to move beyond a "number one" mindset.

Trust and Partnership: A roadmap for how Africa, Southeast Asia, and the West can engage with China as a peer rather than a proxy.

Chapters: 

00:00 China's Transformation: A Personal Reflection
03:06 Understanding China: Key Misunderstandings
06:02 China's Global Role: Perceptions and Realities
12:13 China's Economic Aspirations and Challenges
18:08 Lessons for the Global South: The China Model
24:02 Navigating US-China Relations: Risks and Opportunities
29:56 Changing the Narrative: A Call for Understanding

About The Guest: Chandran Nair

Chandran Nair is a Salzburg Global Fellow and the Founder and CEO of the Global Institute For Tomorrow (GIFT). A prolific author and advocate, his work focuses on re-evaluating the role of the state and challenging neoliberal economic models. He is the principal author of Understanding China: Governance, Socio-Economics, Global Influence and the author of The Sustainable State. Born in Malaysia and of Indian descent, Nair brings a unique vantage point on the shifting dynamics between the West and the Global South.

Follow Chandran Nair on LinkedIn here:   / chandran-nair-57184418a   The Book ‘Understanding China: Governance, Socio-Economics, Global Influence’ is available here: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1041080565?...

About The Host: Eric Olander
Eric Olander is a veteran journalist and media executive with over 30 years of experience reporting for world-leading organisations including CNN, France 24, and the BBC World Service. He is a Salzburg Global Fellow and the Co-Founder and Editor-in-Chief of The China-Global South Project, an independent media initiative exploring global engagement with the developing world.

Follow Eric Olander on LinkedIn here:   / olander   Find out more about Salzburg Global: https://www.salzburgglobal.org/

China's Transformation: A Personal Reflection
I think the problem for the United States and therefore to the world given the power of the Americans particularly with the with the the the exorbitant
privilege of the dollar which nobody talks about when they accuse others of having subsidies. The exorbitant privilege of the dollar is a global
subsidy in the United States which has been exploited and financialized but the military hedgeimony to and the sort of
uh you know uh arrogance to use it willy-nilly anywhere around the world.
So that has to change and what the United States needs is an enlightened leader and it's not had one for I
believe in 40 years. Hello and welcome to Conversation Changers. I'm Eric
Olander. Last year I gave a talk at a university in Singapore where it just so
happened that almost the entire audience I was speaking to was from China. These were all students. Part of my
presentation included a series of photos when I was a student traveling in Beijing and Shanghai way back in the
1980s and the early 1990s. And what was so fascinating was to see
the reaction on their faces, on these kids' faces to these pictures that to
them just made them laugh and they just marveled at because the world depicted in those photos might as well have been
from the 16th century. China back then was poor. And I mean it was really poor.
When I lived with a family there in Beijing for a short period back in the late 1980s, we had to use ration coupons
for food. Virtually no one had cars and there were very few personal luxuries.
In fact, the house that I stayed at was heated in the very cold Beijing winters just because of a pile of coal that was
dumped on the street in front of the house. You went out with a bucket, scooped up some coal, put it into that
bucket, and brought it back inside and put it into a furnace. That's how a lot of houses back then were heated in
Beijing. Now, this made no sense to these kids in Singapore that day, who grew up in a country that is now one of
the most advanced in the world, and personal luxuries are everywhere. They never knew that country that I lived in
all those years ago, which is why they found it so perplexing that this wasn't ancient history. These changes in China
happened within my lifetime over the past 40 years. While China's opening up
and modernization has brought enormous wealth and improved the quality of life of its people, it's also triggered a lot
of anxiety in other parts of the world, namely in the US and Europe, where a lot of people feel that China's rise has
been at their expense. Well, a new book chronicles [music] China's evolution
from that poor country I visited 40 years ago [music] to one that is now again the largest economy by purchasing
power parody and a major geopolitical power. Chandraire is a Salsburg [music]
global fellow and one of the authors of understanding China governance socioeconomics and global influence and
he joins us today from Hong Kong. A very good morning to you Shandran. Welcome to
Understanding China: Key Misunderstandings
Conversation Changers. Good morning, Eric, and thank you for having me. Real pleasure.
Wonderful to have you on the show and what a timely topic to talk about given the tensions in the world between China
and the US in Europe and other countries. So, understanding China feels like it's more relevant than ever. Uh
before we get started, I do want to acknowledge that you were one of several contributors on the book that also
included Jorgen Randers, Jojin Fun, and Frederick Charles Dub. So, we always want to make sure everybody gets the uh
the appropriate credit here. All of you together sought to challenge what you
perceive as some of the key misunderstandings about China. So, let's just dive right into it. The title of
the book is Understanding China. What do you want readers to understand here?
Thank again, Eric, for having me. And just a very quick qualification uh you know so that uh if there are any
shortcomings in the book they're not attributed to the other three but I was I am I was basically the principal
author uh so I take all the blame and if there's a bit of uh glow uh I'll share
it with everybody but uh but I principally had to uh the other three members of the club of Rome China we
decided that it was really imperative that uh we put out something as the club
of Rome China uh to help uh a world that was curious about China particularly in
the west where there is um curiosity yet misplaced understanding fear and all of
those things that you described earlier and that uh it needed to be written in a
way that uh you know 21 year old as well as a 50-year-old politician uh could
understand it and it was not the tome that would take you months to read. you could read it almost in two sittings and
the language is pretty pretty simple and the core issues. So that's uh that that
I want to make that qualification. Sure. Well, what do you want people to understand again? What's the
misunderstanding here that you thought you need to correct? Well, I think all of us who have you
lived in China, I I first went to China in 1989, 1990. I stayed in the Beijing
hotel and as you well described there's hardly any uh any heating uh you didn't
get the keys to your room etc. And so I think the misunderstanding is is profound. uh but the ones that and
I want to keep this politically neutral in in terms of my observation here the the misunderstanding and I I've uh you
know written the book on the basis of my lived experience as well of China and
watching the world at large uh and the misunderstanding that somehow China is some sort of tyranny uh run by a bunch
of uh autocrats and that there is no freedoms at all and that it continues to
China's Global Role: Perceptions and Realities
be a place in which people can't uh flourish and that the state is all powerful and uh that it cheats etc. All
of those things that we've we've heard about you've even uh I think rightly said that uh you know in Europe and and
and in the USA there's a feeling that [snorts] China has uh has um grown at
their expense which is a rather sort of rich thing for Europeans and Americans to accuse another country of. So to try
and get people to understand that this is a civilizational state profound in
its understanding of its role in the world clearly with shortcomings too and the book does explain those shortcomings
but it is a civilizational state that is essentially recognized um its past failings and where it was
too weak and it had to create stability and through a system of meritocracy
which I described in the book in terms of the governance systems etc. rooted in his civilization and culture has
embraced the world. And I also think it's important and I again want to be politically neutral here. uh get people
to understand that uh the evidence to date is that China is not uh a state
looking to essentially you know and there are people who will look at things like Tibet and all of those things and
these are issues to be talked about but Australia is not an expans expansionist state that uh that the rest of us will
have concerns about its size uh particularly us in Southeast Asia but I
don't think there's a view and this needs to be shared that you know China's going to come and take over Malaysia or
Vietnam and things like that. So that's also very important to understand and that's what I wanted people to
understand and it's like any other government going through any other state going through a huge amount of challenges and trying to you know raise
the well-being of its people and meeting all sorts of challenges in a very complex globalized world.
Yeah. I mean when I was reading the book I I understood everything that you said and I I share a lot of your views but do
you understand where the anxieties come from in the west particularly for the working class that feel that they have
lost their jobs they have they're less competitive now and that anxiety is legitimate in in the US and west
certainly it's been politicized to no doubt but do you rec do you and the other authors recognize some of the
concerns that have been brought about from China in fact the IM AMF came out recently and said that 4% of China's GDP
has been allocated to subsidies. Now those are uh those are numbers that in
other countries again they find that objectionable. There's no debate that all countries subsidize their industries
to some extent or another. But I guess in terms of legitimately understanding the maybe the depoliticized concerns of
working class and other people in Europe and US who feel that China has somehow gotten ahead uh at their expense.
Yeah. I mean I think uh I do understand it but I don't necessarily uh agree with
it. uh you know particularly someone like me uh who's uh comes from Southeast
Asia um you know a citizen of a former colony and those of us who were all
citizens of former colonies uh we don't take kindly to the view that suddenly
the the west and partic who represent less than 15% of the world population
suddenly feel they're getting a raw deal. Well, we got a road deal for four centuries. And so that sort of doesn't
sit comfortably with my analysis, nor do I think it sits comfortably with any of
us, including my my colleagues at the club of Rome, that that is something to be uh we can understand it. But the
political climate in the west and I was asked this question in an interview I did about the book a few weeks ago where
I was said, you know, why don't they understand China? And I said the political elite actually understand
not only do they understand China they understand the world has changed what
they have is great fear great fear that the privileges they have enjoyed and
this I'm making a political point but I think in relation to your question it's important that after four centuries of
dominance and essentially almost entitlement they're now faced with another civilization a non Caucasian one
dare I say and that's been echoed by US administrators that they they don't understand China because for the first
time they're confronted with a non-Caucasian civilization that was actually stated by a black uh member of
the administration under under Biden that they're confronted with a civilization that is not western and for
the first time in 400 years they have to partner with others who are nonwestern
either. So people understand all over the world but you know do I worry and do
we should we strategically be thinking about and worrying about a small segment of the global population when 85% of the
global population uh you know not all but a great majority of them do not have
a fraction of the quality of life that even someone in the United States who is at the lower rung of the economic ladder
has and clearly one also has to appreciate that the privileges are still
essential especially those that are part of imperial past and you can talk to Africans about how franophhone Africans
still dominated by France. You can talk about all the colonies etc. and I say
the hegemonic uh sort of actions of the United States using tariffs etc. So we I
understand but you know Europeans and Americans have got to come to the party and it's a new world and the others are
arriving and you have to accept that and China is one of the first to essentially
um arrive and say we're here now the the the challenge will be will China make
sure as you know rise peacefully and that's really the most important thing that we have to contend it contend with
but it has a right to its economic policies including the way it plays with
China's Economic Aspirations and Challenges
subsidies. Yeah. Okay. Well, let's talk about that rise in peacefully. This brings up a
question in many parts of Europe and the US as to what does China want? There is a perception in many parts of the west
that China wants to replace the United States as the world's dominant hegemonic power. You make the case in the book
that that is not the case. You mentioned here that China is not expansionist. So let's get to the bottom line. What do
you think China wants to be in the 21st century? I think I say in the book as well and
Eric, you as uh I would say a scholar of uh Chinese history and and geopolitics
and current uh uh uh uh you know notions of where China wants to go will
understand. China has explicitly said that it does not want to replace the United States. It has no interest in
that. But what I think we I try to portray in the book is China is cognizant that it is a very big and now
a very powerful country. But especially in terms of its economic clout uh in
terms of the impact that his growth has on other countries both positively and
also negatively and it has to be cautious about that and then thirdly in terms of its uh technological progress
etc. So the question for China is really you know and I say in the book that China is um trying to cross the river
while feeling the stones feeling you know what do we do we never been in this position of course it was a dominant
economy about 200 years ago together with India and we all know that that but the world is a very different place 200
years ago there's about a billion people in the world we have 8 billion people what does this look like and my view is
China is trying to figure this out But what I understand uh and try to describe
in the book is that it is very very uh
dangerous to take a western rationale that has shaped the way of understanding
how the world operates. A rationale that was steeped in domination in hedgemony and then say others are going to behave
the same like we did and just superimpose that trajectory of dominance. And I have said this before
that one of the concerns and we need leaders in the in the United States and Europe to arise new leaders who begin to
reflect that not everyone's going to behave like us um and and uh and
dismantle this fear that others will do to us what we did to them. And I think
what China wants and is primarily to have a stable world and that civilizational state as you know is
based on harmony on harmony. Can China maintain that harmony internally and
then internationally given that it is also a growing economy and its appetite for resources will be
huge and I think that's the biggest threat when it wants resources. Will it do it in a way that allows it to rise
peacefully and not disadvantage others? And I've said this to Chinese officials whenever I met them, particularly to do
with resources in Africa, Southeast Asia, fisheries, etc.
You talk about in the book the economic transformation and let's pick up on this idea of the resources. Now according to
kind of recent economic history when countries you know transition from agrarian to light industry to to
manufacturing heavy industry then they eventually get into tech and services and leave behind those lower-end
industries. That's what we saw in Korea in Japan Taiwan uh it's happening here
in Southeast Asia as well as they move up the value chain it gets too costly to do the low-end part of the manufacturing
process. What makes China unique here though, and it's it's unprecedented in many respects, is that as they're moving
up the value chain, making some of the most advanced telecommunications, new energy, auto automation, EVs, all of
this, they're still holding on to making the flip-flops, the t-shirts, and ceramics, for example, at the low end.
Now, China's facing a number of challenges at the same time that you also bring up in the book in terms of
demographics and its population that doesn't really want to work in factories too much anymore. Talk to us about the
challenges of holding on to the bottom end of the manufacturing at the same time as undergoing a demographic change
where there may not be enough people or a will to work in those low-end jobs.
Yeah, I think I I I'll be careful as I frame this, but that whole narrative
that you just described again came from the neoliberal economic model of the
west, right? That this is how economics works. This is how countries work. And I think China is actively seeking to to
break that for its own self for the reasons you described so that they don't leave behind these people and then get a
whole disenfranchised lower economic rung of people who would that would be a
recipe for breakdown which as as we see is what I call you know the sort of low
intense kind of civil war that's happening in Europe in the USA where
you've got all these disenfranchised people and poor political political elites exploiting both spectrums. So you
know uh as you pointed out and I I went to China and saw in the previous life I
had as a consultant doing a lot of due diligence etc the the arrival of the
investments in China the due diligence being done the conversion of the state enterprises to these uh joint ventures
with companies like GE and all of those and China went along that because it had
Lessons for the Global South: The China Model
to lift as many people as possible then we saw the peak of manufacturing which I'm you're you're very well verssed and
I think you know it depending on how you want to look at the numbers it peaked maybe about 15 years ago the peak of
manufacturing and then we saw people essentially having to move back to the
rural areas and then you saw the Chinese policy of revitalization of the rural areas putting very smart people to it. I
think this is a challenge for all our countries. Uh and uh you know as a Southeast Asian and as a Malaysian I I
warn our governments about the sort of you know single track trajectory towards
tech uh dominated economies and forgetting the most basic things. And so
I think you know as you said sticking to the lower end is important but more
importantly which what what I see is redefining what meaningful employment
looks like and therefore what fiscal and monetary policy can look like in the Chinese context. So uh in that sense uh
I think you will agree with me that for many parts of the world the trajectory with regard to where climate is going
what all the resource constraints are doing means that one of the most important industries going forward will
be actually food food production and food security and that cannot hinge on
the industrial model that was exported around the world and perfected particularly in the United States. we're
going to have to do something different because we have to use labor with all the population that we have in the rural
areas and use labor as an input rather than the entire mechanization and
chemicalization of our food supply chains. So I think the Chinese system is
looking and acutely aware that while it is on this trajectory and I don't think
it should compete with the United States or any other country for tech dominance what for it is aware that it has to be
part of what what that technology looks like the most important thing is what
will people do meaningfully for work how will they be paid and I think there are
lots of other remedi uh possibilities is in terms of how you look at fiscal and
monetary policy. You could pay people to actually plant trees and clean up the rivers just in this analogy for
Southeast Asia etc. But food security is going to be very important in rural revitalization. So I think that's that's
the thing and we don't know how that script's going to look like and I believe China is the first country because it's large is going to have to
do that. Of course being of Indian origin though born in Malaysia I'm very interested in the parils with India how
India having 25 years behind but is going to deal with the issue today of
food security and having you know uh arable land a third of the land that
China has but perhaps almost equal in terms of arable land as well but population density much higher. So then
when we I want to take advantage of your background as someone from Malaysia of Indian descent who knows a lot about
Southeast Asia. I live here in Southeast Asia as well and I've spent most of my life in the developing world and a lot
of countries in the in the global south will look to China and say wow what
couple things have happened in in the space again of my lifetime in your lifetime this is not ancient history to
go from one of the poorest countries in the world to one of the wealthiest is remarkable and also to modernize without
westernizing is also something that is quite appealing to a number of countries. So if the prime minister of
Malaysia, the president of Vietnam, the president of Botswana come to you and say, "Shandran, you studied China. What
is the lesson that we can take from what China did to apply to our countries in
the global south that are still heavily agrarian, much the way that China was back in the late 1970s when Paramount
leader Deng Xiaoing started the reform and opening up period? What would you tell them based on your book and your
your life experiences? No, that's a that's a great question, Eric. And you know, in fact, uh with
before I even thought about this book and with my colleagues, I wrote a book which you might probably know is called
the sustainable state and that part uh that's formed the genesis of much of my
arguments and about where our region in developing countries in Africa go. And I
would say to them to your question first um China has succeeded and I believe all countries need to succeed not using the
China model but the principles of essentially in the era we live in of
having a strong state and that but by that in the west it's typically thing as
being authoritarian but essentially a competent state capable of long-term planning and so when I I talk about the
book that the Chinese strength has been meritocracy And that's also civilizational. And we've had podcast
we've had a series of global conversations that we've done around China where we've had Chinese experts
and others talk about the and something that we would like I would like people to understand in this conversation about
the importance that the Chinese place on meritocracy and I won't compare it with leaders from Europe or USA but uh uh
most of those people would not qualify to even get up to a provincial level governor. So the first is uh emertocracy
and and competence right through government and I can give you a lot of examples of you know with the different
countries you can go to a small town in China you meet the mayor as he or she's 40 years PhD in economics and a first
degree in chemical engineering or something like that so the best people go and work with the state second is
essentially the the whole issue of a communitarian view of the role of
Navigating US-China Relations: Risks and Opportunities
government and service and this is a premium in China. There are certainly
examples of people have abused it. You and I know about that. But the fundamental thing is it's a society
based on a communitarian system of governance that you achieve results because you serve society and you do
that. And third has been in my view uh and I know this as as I travel through
Southeast Asia and people say how do they deal with the corruption things so well and they all know that uh
especially in the last uh 12 years or 10 years with President Xi there has been
uh uh a real focus on getting rid of corruption and so you take all of those
three ingredients and you've got essentially what been my view and I've worked in Southeast Asia a lot I I also
lived in Africa. Uh I don't know if you know if you're aware and um those are
the conclusions I came to in my first book on the sustainable state. You need a strong state that is essentially based
on competence, meritocracy, uh zero tolerance for for for
corruption and is communitarian and has a a method and a governance system that
essentially puts communitarian needs and the metrics in place uh to do that and
and that I think is the China formula and not many countries can follow that even my own country with
it's tough it's tough corruption is rampant yet we are a smaller country so it hasn't taken us
down the down the drain but it's a major problem in the country and it's tough you need political leadership
yeah uh very quickly before we go because we're running short on time I do want to circle back to the United States
because you do come back to this in the book about the risk of escalation uh the
mood in the US today is that basically they want a divorce from China the for the most part the political elites and
even now increasingly the corporate elites will say we're done. We don't want to have this relationship. Now, you can't
untangle the relationship entirely given that it's the largest trading relationship in the world, but
nonetheless, there is this sentiment in the United States that says we're kind of finished. And obviously, your book
addresses this and when it talks about the the pressures of economic decoupling, uh, but it also talks about
the risks of miscalculation that may exist on both sides. uh very quickly how
do you assess those risks of miscalculation between the US and China today and where we are?
I think the miscalculation is is simply you know uh what we we don't want a hot war and we don't want the tariff war. I
mean it was interesting that the FT said that uh and the Chinese and others have said this for at least uh uh close to a
year since the tariffs came to place that we will s we will live through this. we will not bow. But the FD
headlines, the front pages is that China China has won. Uh well, partly because
its ability to take pain. The United States and most of Europe is unable to
take pain because of the the cycle of elections etc. Politicians have to
appease uh populations who put them back in place. So I think the the the pain
the the the the risk are war. Um and I think here I and again I'm being more
biased in you've asked me a question about my view of the geopolitics. Sure. I think China China has been extremely
well behaved in putting up with lots of provocation and not uh and not falling
for the bait. That's the first one. Um the second is the economic war. And I
think as we can see now even in the United States um the Supreme Court has said it's illegal. Maybe the tide's
beginning to turn that people are understanding that this is not in the US interest. I'm not sure I I agree, Eric,
but you may have better uh points of contact that corporate America wants to
decouple from China. I mean, corporate America is essentially the definition of, you know, what the capitalist beast
looks like. and where there's money to be made the well they're finding it more difficult
to make money in China because China is much more competitive than it was 15 20 years ago when they first went in take
for example the auto industry uh US automakers are a fraction of what they
were 10 years ago because Chinese automakers now are so are so formidable
yeah so that's basically the whole globalization what they teach you at Harvard Business School isn't it that
you compete you lose Uh, and if you lose, you find different markets. And I think it's very clear,
you know, I you mentioned auto and 10 years ago, I remember going to the Beijing Auto Fair and there was about
probably three or four Chinese car manufacturers. Two years ago or last year, I think there were hardly any
there were couple of Europe few Europeans, couple of Americans and it was all Chinese. So that's uh that's the
competition. I do think China will face problems as we already know uh as it
competes beats and then what then what right so I think those are the the bigger macroeconomic issues not just for
China but also for the world but in terms of the Americans decoupling the
rest of the world uh particularly in relation to what you know this current administration has done has been
disabused of the merits of the American system uh the masks been taken off and I
think the eur Americans and Europeans but more the Americans have a lot of work to do to regain the trust of the
rest of the world particularly as the products are not as good can't compete with the others can't even compete with
Koreans uh let alone the Chinese so you know no one wants to see a weak United
States and certainly not a weak United States that lashes out to the rest of the world because it creates great
Changing the Narrative: A Call for Understanding
disruption and so you know one hopes that uh we see through the next three
years and Americans will be wise enough uh to elect a a good president. I think
the problem for the United States and therefore the world given the power of the Americans particularly with the with
the the the exorbitant privilege of the dollar which nobody talks about when they accuse others of having subsidies.
The exorbitant privilege of the dollar is a global subsidy in the United States which has been exploited and
financialized but the military hedgeimony to and the sort of uh you
know uh arrogance to use it willy-nilly anywhere around the world. So that has
to change. What the United States needs is an enlightened leader and it's not had one for I believe in 40 years. And
if the United States has an enlightened leader, one who says, "Hey, we're no more number one." And you know how
difficult that is for any politician to say, "But we can be partners with the best countries in the world and redefine
it." That's what the new order looks like. The world will be a better place and the United States will essentially
be be what uh the current administration wants it to be be great. uh and that
that really what I see the risk as uh as being and I think the rest of the world is derisked
um China uh in terms of they don't think China is anymore the threat that the propaganda
has said now China will have to live up also to that uh that that belief that
others have which they have cultivated but can they sustain it that's the other question
will we close every one of our podcasts given The name of the show is conversation changers with what part of
the conversation do you want to change? So what part of the conversation about China do you want to change?
Well um to put it surely it depends on the audience in the west. Uh I think the
Europeans uh you have a long tradition uh trust China work with China you need
China. Again coming back to you know I'm seeing a little shift in the FD and the BBC uh that my god the world needs China
for climate change reversal right that was quite a long analysis done I think
was in the BBC uh so your Europeans it's trust China uh don't decouple from China
uh but you might want to decouple a bit more from the United States so that you don't become its proxy for all these
other things for the America Americans I would say understand that China is not a threat to the United States. Um you
would compete but that is not a threat but China is not a a threat to the sovereignty and the sort of homeland as
such and there's a lot to be gained by working with China and to the rest of the world particularly Africa etc. My
message is u China is in Africa now um and it can be a good partner. It's also
up to you to make sure that the Chinese are accountable uh as they're helping you and that like any country is
powerful that doesn't take advantage of you. It's up to you. And in Southeast Asia, I think think the message is we in
Southeast Asia as you know Eric are more familiar with Chinese civilization because Chinese civilization is the
diaspora and the civilization is right across. I was brought up with Chinese people. So I don't see Chinese as a who
are those people. uh for us is to essentially also do the same thing which is to take advantage of China's um
economic power partnership etc but also be cautious to make sure that China
doesn't overstretch uh given its size protect our resources have fair deals
with the Chinese and demand that those deals work in our favor rather than succumb to economic power that but to
trust that you know China is not an expansionist power and work together with and learn from it as well. Not in
terms of adopting his political model, but more importantly the things I mentioned, the emphasis on meritocracy,
competence, you know, fighting corruption very hard and being communitarian.
Okay. Well, if you're looking for an articulate counterpoint to many of the more skeptical narratives about China
that are pervasive in the US, Europe, and elsewhere, understanding China, governance, socioeconomics, global
influence is a fascinating read. It's written by Shandran Nair and again with the support of Jorgens Renders Jojin Fun
and Frederick Charles Dub Shandran thank you so much for taking the time to join us today and to share some of your
insights on again what is just an incredibly fascinating and timely topic on conversation changers
Eric thank you for having me and thank you to the Salsburg forum for uh giving me this opportunity thanks so much
it's wonderful and on behalf of everybody at Salsburg Global around the world I want to thank you for listening
and for watching to another episode of Conversation Changers. We'll be back again with another show with another
Salsburg Global Fellow doing fascinating things like Shandran. So, thank you so much for taking the time to join us.
We'll see you again soon. Bye for now. In an age of polarized voices and
reinforced views, be part of changing the conversation. Follow us on social
media and visit us at saltsburgglobal.org.